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Deva Timecode is gonna get me sacked


HOPKIN

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Im using the Deva V and I absolutely love it for recording sound.

BUT the timecode is absoluely useless!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im working on a three arri alexa drama and im getting flagged by the edit every day for a 1-2 frame slip.

Unfortunately the frame delay is inconsistent, so everything has to be manually synced. The shoot is at 23.976 and so is the deva. Im using an Ambient clockit controller to tune all cameras to the deva's oscillating crystal. I then pump timecode to all three cameras, making sure to change the setting to internal sync after doing so. I then feed the timecode directly into the deva which is set to continuos jam.

But something is causing the timecode to slip. I understand that the devas intenal clock can cause problems but surely if the timecode is continually being jammed there should be no issues. Also if I dont tune the acc 501 to the deva it will drift which makes no sense whatsoever as it should be jamming off of whatever its being fed.

This morning i checked for updates for the firmware and realised i was one behind. 7.55 is now available and has some info regarding the update. Here it is in full

Version 7.55

Fixed some timecode accuarcy problems ???????????????????

Ive tried to find some more info about this but I cant, I find the description a bit vague.

Also the DEVA has been around forever now and I dont understand why timecode has just been sorted.

I read a lot of posts here regarding working with alexas, along with brief descripts of how to get timecode into the camera etc. With a lot of recordists signing off with, the post were happy. But this doesnt mean that the timecode was frame accurate as it should be.

Has anyone got any exotic ideas on how to properly sync alexas to devas, as I am at the end of my tether.

Also does anyone know how to get in touch with Glenn Sanders via email as I would love to pick his brains on the subject. Many thanks Bryn Thomas

auge
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Wow! You are certainly having some kind of really rare and odd problem. It was a little difficult for me to follow exactly what it is you are doing but if you are in fact jamming Ambient Lockit boxes and then it is sync boxes that are supplying TC to the cameras, the slate and the Deva, everything should be just fine. Even if the idle talk over all these years about Deva timecode being less accurate than other sources (something which I have never seen to be true, personally), the Deva isn't supplying the continuous TC if you're using the Ambient boxes for TC. There is some flaw in the setup and the use of external source then continuous jam, then back to internal or something.

This statement is a little confusing where you describe your procedure (but I've never done it exactly this way so I'm not the best one to sort this out): "I'm using an Ambient clockit controller to tune all cameras to the deva's oscillating crystal. I then pump timecode to all three cameras, making sure to change the setting to internal sync after doing so. I then feed the timecode directly into the deva which is set to continuos jam."

There is a flaw here somewhere and I believe it cannot be explained by your statement: "I understand that the devas intenal clock can cause problems" because there is just too much history of successful shoots with the Deva (just for me personally, 25 feature films without a hitch).

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Not a Deva user, so I won't comment there... but having worked around the Alexa several times here are a couple things I have learned.

The Alexa holds time exceptionally well, but like everyone I know, we re-jam cameras at least every 6 hours as a matter of practice. In my experience, if the Alexa is shut down for more than 30 minutes, it should be re-jammed.

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Deva has been around forever as far as file based recording is concerned. I believe Howy made an improvment to the time code generator in Nomad and wanted to put the same code in the Deva.

If you are "tuned" to the Deva as the master and then continiously jamed to somthing else than the Deva is not the master and I could see you haveing a drift issue.

Let the Deva be the master and don't lock it to a seperate device. Rejam the cameras after a Deva power down if possible. If you let the Deva be the master and put a Zaxcom ERX2TCD on each camera with a Zaxnet transmitter to feed them it would not be neccessary to jam anything. (Not promoting just saying)

You should load the latest software and see if the problem resolves itself. If you need to talk, send me an Email to gs@zaxcom.com with your phone number and I can give you a call this weekend. Let me know a good time to call.

Glenn

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" BUT the timecode is absoluely useless!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

Oh, Grow up...

seriously, calm down, and get to work problem-solving.

what is "slipping", compared to what else ?? does the slip grow, or is it a constant value ?? what device or devices are slipping compared to what other devices (you seem to have about 8 different devices involved...)

a constant small offset value is common and easy for post to deal with...

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I'm trying to figure out why you think the problem is the Deva. When you're continuously jamming the Deva, does the time code page show good incoming time code and is the Deva locking to it? Have you checked to see if any of the cameras stays locked with the Deva? Could the issue be with a particular camera? Have you determined that each of the cameras are, indeed, taking a continuous jam? Have you checked the cameras for time code lock after each battery change? Is the slate accurate with each of the cameras at the point where there is a sync issue? Are any of the cameras accurate with the Deva at the point where there is a problem? Is the Deva time code accurate with the slate?

With this many variables and so many unanswered questions, I'm puzzled how you've narrowed it down to the Deva. Your description may be leaving out important steps you're doing in your trouble-shooting procedure, so we may not be getting the full picture. Otherwise, I don't understand how you've decided where the problem lies.

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Is this your setup?

--cams and Deva verified to be on same frame rate

--3 x Alexa on internal sync, external TC, with that TC coming from Lockits that were jammed to the Deva TC output

--The Deva is on its own clock/TC gen, or are you feeding it ext TC from another Lockit--I'm not clear from your post

how the Deva is being run in this regard?

The Alexa part of the setup is how I've done (been instructed to do) the last several Alexa shoots I've worked on. But my recorder, which was the TC source that jammed the camera Lockits, was running on its own TC gen+clock. This has worked out very well. Does post say that the cameras are in sync with each other, and the Deva files are out of sync? Are any of the cameras staying is sync with the Deva? Is the offset worse at hour 8 than it was at hour 1? Are any of the files in sync with the slate code? From which source? And...no funny business in post--esp re ingest into Final Cut?

phil p

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From my experience with all the troubleshooting I've helped people with (and this is a few years old at this point), ALWAYS have the Deva be the master timecode generator and jam everything off that. If you have an Ambient master controller, tune it to the Deva, and then jam the master controller from the Deva. Then jam all your lockit boxes and slates. The few "production" jobs I've done, I've always had my audio recorder be the master TC generator, no matter what it is...Deva or 744T. Never had a problem doing that.

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Apologies one and all, just very very stressed as you all can imagine. I wont elaborate on what ive been doing, as it is very long winded and over complicating. But in a nutshell I was trying to calibrate the arri alexa tc with an ambient acc 501 clockit controller and then feeding the deva with the acc501 using the continuos jam sync.

David Hall explains it better. This is taken from his website: you will have to replace Ambient Lockits with Arri Alexa

I use Ambient Lockits and the newer ACC501 Master Controller. I am careful to tune the ACC501 to the Deva/Fusion (using the tune to LTC (Linear Timecode) option) and then the camera Lockits are tuned to the ACC501. I then have the ACC501 plugged into the Deva/Fusion where I can keep an eye on any developing timecode difference. Once or twice a day I hit the Jam button on the Deva but the difference is rarely more than a few “hundredths” of a frame. (I say “hundredths” but to be precise due to the niceties of SMTPE timecode the ACC501 is probably displaying 80ths or 160ths of a second).

Just want to commend Glenn Sanders as he phoned me immediately on reading this post and offered some suggestions I will try Monday. That is the best service I have received on any of my gear from the biggest to the smallest and on a weekend AMAZING.

Comment of the thread goes to Senator "

BUT the timecode is absoluely useless!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

Oh, Grow up...

seriously, calm down, and get to work problem-solving.

There are no problems Senator....Only solutions and thank you Jeff Wexler for creating this forum which connects us all.

Safety

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Well, it sounds like you are on the way to "recovery" and some system of timecode interfacing that will work without problems. My question, and I know it may show my ignorance in these issues, but why you were trying to do all this calibration stuff? In my experience, I have always just used the Deva as the master, jam all the other devices that are being used (sync boxes, slates, cameras either directly or the sync boxes that are to be attached) --- I don't even have a way of "calibrating" all this stuff.

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I used to handle time code the same way Jeff does (jam everything from the Deva) but I've recently changed to a slightly different method that meets my needs nicely.

(Here comes a bunch of long-winded geek talk...)

I jam either a Denecke SB2a or Denecke GR-1 from the Deva V. I do it this way since setting time and user bits are much easier on the Deva. That Denecke box then becomes my time code "master" for the day. It runs from its own battery (and can run for days!), so I don't have to think twice about any time code issues powering down the cart between setups (however, that part is not really a big issue since I have full battery backup on the whole cart).

I then jam the slate and any sync boxes needed, from the "master," and the "master" feeds the Deva which is set to continuous jam. The Deva V feeds time code to the backup recorder.

Prior to Deva firmware v.7.54 the Deva time code would jump a bit each time the Deva was cycled if "Auto Jam Date at Midnight" was checked in the "Timecode Run Mode" menu. Whenever you change which device you're mirroring to, you need to cycle the machine. On many gigs these days, I need to furnish both a CF card for the DIT to copy to the hard drive containing the video, as well as a "hard copy" version for the client on DVD-RAM. So, as the day evolves, I may cycle the machine several times as I keep both mirrors updated.

With firmware v.7.54 Howy fixed this time code jump so it's non-consequential. However, it still may jump about one, or two, tenths of a frame. Since I found myself switching mirrors several times a day (that way there's little wait for both mirrors to be finished at wrap), those tenths can add up. Therefore, I decided I would use one of my Denecke boxes as the time code "master." This actually has some other advantages. When I wish to re-jam a camera-mounted box after lunch, I don't necessarily have to unleash it from the camera and return to the cart. I can simply take the little Denecke "master" wherever I need to, in order to jam any other gear. Or, if I'm just jamming an Alexa once (without locking a box to it), I'll be jamming it from the same "master."

I've found this a really nice way to work.

A while back I calibrated all my main time code devices with the GR-1. Some of the things I found out were, the Denecke boxes are definitely the most stable of all my TC devices. The Deva V was out of spec by a ways (it had served several award-winning "A" list films prior to my acquiring it), the TS3 was just barely in spec, and the Nomad was just at the edge of its allowable deviation. I proceeded to geek out until I had all the devices calibrated to within three tenths of a frame deviation over six hours. It took a lot of time and "trial and error" over a few days to get them all nailed down. What I found was, that the three Denecke boxes (GR-1, SB2a, SB2a), were within a tenth of each other over the six hours -- absolutely awesome! I didn't have to adjust either of the SB2a boxes (which had been calibrated by Denecke a year or so prior).

Anyway, so much for the geek talk. This approach is working nicely for me.

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I'll check the manual. But if I recall correctly the Alexa is set to external TC to jam. Then once the source is removed the camera continues on with its internal clock. No need to switch it to internal. I'll post again once I find it.

Yes this is true.

Opinion: Fiddling with the TC switch after the clock is removed my cause some errors.

Edited by Jeff Babb
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I used to handle time code the same way Jeff does (jam everything from the Deva) but I've recently changed to a slightly different method that meets my needs nicely.

- snip - to spare repeating the geek talk

Anyway, so much for the geek talk. This approach is working nicely for me.

I have been thinking of doing things just the way John B. describes here, using 1 sync box (probably a Denecke) set from my Deva and used as the MASTER. Then jamming everything else (including a sync box that feeds the Deva), the slates, etc. This gives me a small, portable, very stable master sync source that can travel around the set jamming slates when they need it, cameras, etc. As John explains, this certainly would help prevent all those panicked trips back to the sound cart to jam a slate or having to pull a sync box off a camera to re-jam, etc. It seems like a really good way to go.

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I jam either a Denecke SB2a or Denecke GR-1 from the Deva V. I do it this way since setting time and user bits are much easier on the Deva. That Denecke box then becomes my time code "master" for the day. It runs from its own battery (and can run for days!), so I don't have to think twice about any time code issues powering down the cart between setups (however, that part is not really a big issue since I have full battery backup on the whole cart).

I then jam the slate and any sync boxes needed, from the "master," and the "master" feeds the Deva which is set to continuous jam. The Deva V feeds time code to the backup recorder.

Prior to Deva firmware v.7.54 the Deva time code would jump a bit each time the Deva was cycled if "Auto Jam Date at Midnight" was checked in the "Timecode Run Mode" menu. Whenever you change which device you're mirroring to, you need to cycle the machine. On many gigs these days, I need to furnish both a CF card for the DIT to copy to the hard drive containing the video, as well as a "hard copy" version for the client on DVD-RAM. So, as the day evolves, I may cycle the machine several times as I keep both mirrors updated.

With firmware v.7.54 Howy fixed this time code jump so it's non-consequential. However, it still may jump about one, or two, tenths of a frame. Since I found myself switching mirrors several times a day (that way there's little wait for both mirrors to be finished at wrap), those tenths can add up. Therefore, I decided I would use one of my Denecke boxes as the time code "master." This actually has some other advantages. When I wish to re-jam a camera-mounted box after lunch, I don't necessarily have to unleash it from the camera and return to the cart. I can simply take the little Denecke "master" wherever I need to, in order to jam any other gear. Or, if I'm just jamming an Alexa once (without locking a box to it), I'll be jamming it from the same "master."

I use a similar method with great results! Within the first couple days of receving my Fusion, I discovered the clock was not as accurate as my Denecke gear, and also it would offset a bit after power cycling it. To save the hassel, I bought an extra SB-3 for the Fusion. I would set the time and user bit on the Fusion in the morning, then Jam my TS-C, which in turn jams the rest of the SB-3. Each camera and the Fusion gets an SB-3 (Fusion set to Continous Jam). Everything stays in sync throughout the day. I don't even need to rejam during lunch. For any reason any camera's SB-3 needs to be rejammed, it can be done with the TS-C since it's already in camera dept. hands. I can power cycle the Fusion all I want. The Denecke gear is rock solid.

I still wish Zaxcom would team up with Denecke. When I was using a 788T, it stayed in sync with the Denecke gear perfectly using it's internal Ambient Clock.

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I'm sure Glenn will tell you this on the phone, but if people search this thread in the future.... FACTORY RESET!

I once had a weird anomaly where I was power cycling a lot. Short version, I was trying to mirror to a CF card AND an external firewire drive during the day. I was bouncing between the two to keep it up. I know, silly. My attempt required rebooting that caused a minor skip in time. This was a quick reboot, not power down for a few hours. I was pretty new to the Deva (Fusion specifically) so I had been trying every possible setting in the effects and whatever and screwed something up. In the end, a factory reset fixed it. That was Early Spring 2010, and we have had a few software updates since then.

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I have been thinking of doing things just the way John B. describes here, using 1 sync box (probably a Denecke) set from my Deva and used as the MASTER. Then jamming everything else (including a sync box that feeds the Deva), the slates, etc. This gives me a small, portable, very stable master sync source that can travel around the set jamming slates when they need it, cameras, etc. As John explains, this certainly would help prevent all those panicked trips back to the sound cart to jam a slate or having to pull a sync box off a camera to re-jam, etc. It seems like a really good way to go.

I use a GR-1 as a Master Clock for everything. I jam my 788s and a Denecke SB-3 from the GR-1. My Utility can take the SB-3 around and jam the TS-C slates and the Alexas as he goes. I used to have the Utility take the GR-1 around so to jam cameras and slates to keep everything on a "one generation" way from the master clock, but the GR-1 isn't as portable as the SB-3 (the GR-2 looks good for this though).

Josh

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Much good advice above. I'll only add two new thoughts:

1) I have always been suspicious of timecode stability in devices that are turned off (Deva and SD included). For that reason, I keep the recorder on about 90% of the time, except perhaps at a meal break. After the meal, I rejam everything -- slate, cameras, etc. -- and generally have never had a problem.

2) while the Alexa can generally hold time code well, several post engineers have told me that for absolute timecode accuracy in multicam shoots, you're better off running the cameras with genlock and external code. If you don't, they will occasionally slip a frame or two.

In reality, I think post is just bitching and moaning, and the assistant editor should just shut up and fix it -- but that's just me. This is a trivial, trivial thing to fix in my experience. But then, I come from a film background, where even multiple film cameras had different shutters and had to be manually synced with each other. To me, it adds a few seconds per take to check in the edit room, not even half an hour to the assistant's duties.

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The "master clock" idea is great for a cart but here in dinky-job-world I don't want to deal with an outboard TC gen in the bag, so just leave the SD recorder on all day except for (fast) batt changes. I've wondered if the reason an SD recorder (744 and 702 anyhow) "loses" their TC after being off for awhile was a way of forcing you to rejam everything because the recorder would have drifted off "time" by then. I work on a lot of multicamera multi-slate jobs with a little 744 rig, and just letting the TC roll on, even at lunch or during moves seems to work best. L mount batteries are cheap....

Marc--you mentioned yet another Alexa method (ext sync and TC, as with Epic etc); I've had various on-set DITs tell me that one, Ext TC but NO ext sync (and this with multiple cams!), and "jam+disconnect". Some ACs weigh in on this too. ALL of these have worked for me ("worked" in the sense of no irate phone calls from post), thru various firmwares, so I always ask what the opinion/theory/fetish about sync and TC of the specific shoot. Maybe I'll try and talk the local rental house into doing another test with me--since some producers have now been told that they don't need Lockits for Alexas, and don't want to pay for them.....

phil p

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The "master clock" idea is great for a cart but here in dinky-job-world I don't want to deal with an outboard TC gen in the bag, so just leave the SD recorder on all day except for (fast) batt changes. I've wondered if the reason an SD recorder (744 and 702 anyhow) "loses" their TC after being off for awhile was a way of forcing you to rejam everything because the recorder would have drifted off "time" by then. I work on a lot of multicamera multi-slate jobs with a little 744 rig, and just letting the TC roll on, even at lunch or during moves seems to work best. L mount batteries are cheap....

Phil,

The main reason the generator on the earlier 7 Series shuts off at 4 hours is that is as long as we reasonably expected the timecode backup battery to last reliably.

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Jeff Wexler in answer to why all the callibration stuff this is what

John B is describing, which is what ive been doing and there has been 1-2 frame slips. The only difference is ive been using Ambient instead of Denecke.

I was told yesterday by Glenn that the Deva doesnt like receving tc from an external source.

Still a bit confused. It must be who you get in the edit

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Deva has no problem with external time code sources. What I said was external time code can cause the Deva to be less accurate frame to frame as it has to follow the external source. The better way is to just let Deva be the master and let it free run.

Glenn

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Over some years now I have found Deva TC, when it is left to run free, to drift with respect to other devices.

If you wish for the Deva to be the Master, then tune the ACC501 Controller to the Deva, then tune the Lockit boxes to the Controller.

I believe, I have a recollection, that, although Arri Alexa can be tuned to a Controller, it doesnt hold that tuning through a power cycle. I cant confirm this but I believe it to be true. Someone nearer to an Arri Alexa might care to conform this.

I have found, over many years, that a Lockit box on all TC devices (including Deva) can work very well indeed, and has probably been my most successful methodology.

Most recently I did 8 months on a TV drama series here in the UK. I jammed a LANC Lockit box from the Deva, jammed the Alexas from that, and then plugged the LANC Lockit box back into the Deva's ext TCIP and ran it on Continuous jam sync. It worked very well. As it happens they generally sunc up by eye (what is the past tense of to sync up?), but the assistant editor told me that, TC accuracy was prety consistent whenever she checked it.

I would suggest that you tune a bunch of Lockit boxes to the Deva via a controller, and then stick a Lockit box on every device that has TC.

Kindest regards, and good luck,

Simon B

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same here. I jam an ACL203 from my Fusion. That becomes my Master and jams the 2nd LockIt for the Alexa and then back onto the Fusion which is set to ContJamAll. Just one rejam to the Alexa´s LockIt after Lunch and that´s it.

Wish the Fusion had a build in Lockit like my 744. When in bag-mode every piece of gear adds weight.

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