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Low Budget Feature, Solo = Give Me Time?!


Joel Pinteric

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I've been lucky to be starting audio post on my first feature (very low budget), which is just over 80mins. It is a drama between three main characters, but there's a few more.

I'm already over a month into it and I've already been delayed significantly by ADR editing, although that is part of the process.

Just looking for some perspective on how much time to give a project, when the Director/Producer's one "sound designer" (me) is likened to a whole audio-post department. Tell me if this is not unusual?

Firstly I know there are many variables that will be affecting the size of sound post teams.

Budget and work load are the main ones. In this case, it is just me working on it.

I've got <5yrs experience, but I'm supposed to be paid what I would demand for about 27 hours of work. But I'm thinking the finish line is a bit more than few months away haha. No sign of contract yet.

They did not have an experienced, or specially "dedicated" sound recordist, so Sound Editing is probably going to take more time than the actual creative sound design itself, although I think Editing is very time consuming regardless. I've tried to break down the time estimate to the Director since he's already asking me when I should have it finished.

So I've just informed them that Editing, Sound Design, Mixing are the main blocks.

If I could split that further into a time estimate as a ratio, it would probably be 5 : 3 : 2

Any thoughts/advice much appreciated. How much time should I really dedicate to something like this or what is expected? In between other (part-time) work and projects I'm thinking I'll be lucky to get this done in under a few months. Is there anything typical or any examples that I could use as a guide?

That's another thing too, in the meantime how does one decide on taking on other projects? It is low budget but what of priorities?

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The amount of time available to work on a project is directly proportional to the amount of dollars coming in to provide for same.

The quality of the finished product is directly proportional to the quality of the raw materials.

An abundance of either does not necessarily guarantee a quality finished product, though a decided lack of either can virtually guarantee a finished product that is worthless.

Priorities generally include living indoors, eating with fair regularity, and covering basic expenses. Work that covers these things gets more attention than work that does not.

Once these priorities are settled, charity or fun work becomes an option.

You are not "lucky" to have gotten this project. You are just the guy that agreed to do it. I guess if you must call it luck, you now have an abundance of have bad luck.

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How experienced is this producer/directer? From what you are saying this almost sounds like somebody who thinks editing is something that just happens ie. you hand your footage to the editor and poof it is done and finished for delivery the next morning. IMHO I would get that contract now and make sure it has provisions for if this takes way longer because of changes or anything they throw in. It is looking like the edit time has been grossly under estimated and that could be a deal killer.

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This project sounds like it's both gnarly ("no dedicated recordist") and low budg ("27 hours"). If you've bought off on finishing their film for that small amount of money, then my thought is that what you get in return is flexibility on time of delivery. By this I mean that I would feel free to be doing other jobs in and around this one to keep the lights on and the rent paid, and you circle back to your movie when you can. This sort of thing happens to me all the time and I have to find ways to politely tell people that theirs is not the only project I have going here, and that if they want me involved some patience and flexibility on their side is needed. A "lock out"--where I only work on their film during a specific run of days with a fixed delivery date at the end, has to cost a lot more money than a less definitely scheduled arrangement, the economics of my life demand it. As to how much time you WANT to put into the project--what it's worth to you, only you can answer that. If this is your first feature and you'd like to do more, then making it be as good as you can make it would be a good idea? But you'd be doing that anyhow, probably!

phil p

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I'm with what Philip said above. There are a lot of people trying to get into this Biz and there is always somebody willing to do whatever (even if it is seemingly unreasonable) for little or no $. If it's not you, it will be the next person or the next etc.. You have to weigh what you are willing to do for what they are offering and asking and make your own decision. If you are looking for experience and credit then this is usually the type of thing you are going to encounter.

Brian

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Cujo nailed it.

I would have rammed the dialog edit through in about 4 days.

A day on ADR at most. If it takes longer they didn't do a good job recording it in synch.

Another week throwing in some BG's and hard fx.

Mix it in 3-4 days. Done.

But really, I wouldn't have taken the job at all at that rate.

I hope your hourly rate is $200 an hour, because otherwise, what's the point.

Cut your losses. Don't let anybody be at the mix, except for playback and fixes. And limit them at that.

One 9 hour day for playback and fixes. Don't gve them a DVD to listen to at home, before the playback, or you'll have 100 pages of notes,One every 5 seconds. Make sure you get paid in advance. Period. For the minuscule amount of money you are getting, that has to be the deal.

This way they can't try and pressure you into doing fix after fix after fix fir weeks after you do the final mix playback.

If you don't think that will happen. Think again.

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Cujo nailed it.

I would have rammed the dialog edit through in about 4 days.

A day on ADR at most. If it takes longer they didn't do a good job recording it in synch.

Another week throwing in some BG's and hard fx.

Mix it in 3-4 days. Done.

But really, I wouldn't have taken the job at all at that rate.

I hope your hourly rate is $200 an hour, because otherwise, what's the point.

Cut your losses. Don't let anybody be at the mix, except for playback and fixes. And limit them at that.

One 9 hour day for playback and fixes. Don't gve them a DVD to listen to at home, before the playback, or you'll have 100 pages of notes,One every 5 seconds. Make sure you get paid in advance. Period. For the minuscule amount of money you are getting, that has to be the deal.

This way they can't try and pressure you into doing fix after fix after fix fir weeks after you do the final mix playback.

If you don't think that will happen. Think again.

Well, that's a way to roll if you can afford it and are willing to let the project go. An experienced director would see the wisdom/necessity in this approach (highly experienced mixer working fast to a budget), but I can pretty much say for certain that an inexperienced one, (or one with a certain level of ambition or personal stake in the film) won't--they'll find someone who will give them more for less. How much more for how much less is what you have to decide for yourself, Mr OP, if you want the job. Everyone starts with these kinds of films, pretty much.

phil p

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Henchman above has good numbers for an ultra-low gig. I would bet a project like Jaypin describes did not come with an experienced post supervisor who had a clue as to schedules and what could reasonably be done for a given budget. A week for a dialog edit, a week for SFX editing, and a week for a final mix is blowing through very quickly, though I have seen rough temp mixes done in half that time (very rough).

I have seen the same thing happen in color correction, when I was asked, "how long is this going to take?" And the answer is, "we can do it in a day or we can do it in two months, or somewhere inbetween. It all depends on the material, the budget, and your expectations." Post has a bad habit of taking over all the time that's available. It's rare that one finished early.

Do get a contract, get a schedule with bullet points that specify what has to be done by a certain date, and get 1/3 of the money when you start the project, 1/3 in the middle of the schedule, and 1/3 upon final delivery. A deal memo can work as long as it covers these specific points, as well as overtime in case they go over the schedule -- you deserve to be paid if and when that happens.

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Some excellent advice above.

To add to that (It may not apply to this project, but for the future, and for others looking in), there should be the following stipulations somewhere in your deal memo:

1) Your fees and time table depend upon receiving a LOCKED film. No changes to the picture. You should delineate what ANY change whatsoever to the picture cut will cost them. Those additional fees should be punitive enough to strongly discourage this sinkhole of time and energy.

2) Your clock (i.e. agreed to schedule) starts ONLY after delivery of ALL necessary post production assets. None of the, "Well, you can start and we'll get you this" and "we'll get you that." You have too much to do to be "working around" the assets you don't yet have.

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Oh, man, don't get me started on "locked" pictures. I swear to god, nothing's "locked" anymore -- it's just "latched." Makes me crazy.

I would add to John's comments above that the client must be responsible for specifying all final deliverables at the end of the project, and some of those may require extra charges. For example, they may require a dedicated 2-channel mix for TV, or a 5.1 music & effects-only mix (with filled effects) for foreign, or even separate stems. This is very typical, and takes more time and effort.

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Even thigh we all know its going to change, getting a "locked " picture at least is a starting point for the overage that are going to have to be covered. And I have seen cases where as soon as it was known what the overages were going to be to be, a new proposed re-edit of a project was quickly voted down.

People need to know the financial costs of their proposed, completely unnecessary frame-effing they want to do.

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Thanks so much, everyone. In regards to he commentary on me being "lucky", I totally saw that coming, haha. No need to be discouraging, I'm well aware of the demands in this scenario but my luck is in the experience and credit. I am enjoying it but I know a professional product will be more enjoyable.

Cujo: If it's so clear cut, how much time then for $2k?

Can you expand on 'the quality of the finished product?' Seems a little bit tautological so far.

Greg S: When you say that, do you mean full-time and excluding other projects?

Geoff T: He's had a fair bit, but probably not as much to expect more... he's easygoing about it, which is just what I need.

Phil P: My thoughts exactly! Except the 27 hour is my wording for worth. There probably isn't an average no. hours spent solo on a feature, so I can't say much more.

Brian: Thanks for the tip, yep I've already started but I know what you mean with going the extra mile, as Phil said.

Henchman: Interesting, how many hours equals a 'day' for you? And when you say "$200p/h" are you suggesting that this would be worth nearly $5k? Remember I don't really have much perspective on doing all audio-post work for a project this size.

What do you mean by 'playback and fixes;' is it just letting them watch with you in person and make suggestions on the spot?

Marc W: Thanks, contracts are a new thing in my world but I've asked for one now. Do you have any external reference/example for when it comes to giving/writing your own contracts (for when I am obliged to provide them)?

John B: We've more or less agreed to this verbally... however the producer is the one I haven't spoken to yet but he's obviously supposed to provide the contract...

Thanks again everyone, all input much appreciated!

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Henchman: Interesting, how many hours equals a 'day' for you? And when you say "$200p/h" are you suggesting that this would be worth nearly $5k? Remember I don't really have much perspective on doing all audio-post work for a project this size.

What do you mean by 'playback and fixes;' is it just letting them watch with you in person and make suggestions on the spot?

This job should be at the very least $25k

They could barely get a day on a Dubstage for $5k

Now, seeing as you are starting out, it should be what a months worth of 9 hour days, 5 days a week is worth it to you.

IMO, $5k should be the bare minimum for that amount of time, even for a newcomer.

As far as payback and fixes. After you have completely mixed the movie, you bring the clients in. Play the entire movie from beginning to end, and tell them to take notes, with time code position. It doesn't need to be frame accurate, but minute and second.

Otherwise you will be there all night.

Then, after you finish playback, you start going through the notes com beginning to end.

And then it's done.

If they come back later with more fixes, You charge them more money.

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Cujo: If it's so clear cut, how much time then for $2k?

I do not know what the industry standard is for post processing.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure that unless you are living in a basement somewhere and eating ramen noodles, $2k for a month's labor plus many more weeks to come is probably somewhat below the norm.

Can you expand on 'the quality of the finished product?' Seems a little bit tautological so far.

I had to look up ' tautologocal'. Interesting. I've not heard or used that word until today, so thanks :)

To your point - The quality of the finished product depends on the raw materials. - You cannot make gold from lead, you cannot make chicken salad from chicken crap, The Godfather wasn't recorded on a Zoom. You get out what you put in.

More to the point, no amount of post processing in the world can save audio that at its root, is unusable. Yes you can add effects, re-mix the crap out of it, filter, eq, and use every digital trick known to man, but ultimately, the finished product is only as good as what you started with in the first place.

As proven by Mythbusters....You can polish a turd. And it might look ok. But at the end of the day... it's still a turd.

I think these guys have given you really solid advise. Go with it and prosper.

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Thanks Marc, I am searching there (I am registered too). Seems Google's Search is more useful than the GSlutz search feature at the moment...

Can you please see my question on contracts?

Henchman, thanks again. All very interesting. Nice price tag there haha... 8)

To your point - The quality of the finished product depends on the raw materials. - You cannot make gold from lead, you cannot make chicken salad from chicken crap, The Godfather wasn't recorded on a Zoom. You get out what you put in.

More to the point, no amount of post processing in the world can save audio that at its root, is unusable. Yes you can add effects, re-mix the crap out of it, filter, eq, and use every digital trick known to man, but ultimately, the finished product is only as good as what you started with in the first place.

As proven by Mythbusters....You can polish a turd. And it might look ok. But at the end of the day... it's still a turd.

I suppose there are some exceptions, but yes, when given bad quality sound, there is only so much you can do. I see your point... "The Godfather wasn't recorded on a Zoom." Haha! Good one.

My last Q for the moment: Again, would anyone agree that the audio-post work method as solo is uncommon for feature films? I imagine the shorter features are more likely to be a one-man band, compared to mid-longer length (120-180min), which would already have the budget for bigger studios/teams.

Cheers all!

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Thanks Marc, I am searching there (I am registered too). Seems Google's Search is more useful than the GSlutz search feature at the moment...

Can you please see my question on contracts?

Henchman, thanks again. All very interesting. Nice price tag there haha... 8)

I suppose there are some exceptions, but yes, when given bad quality sound, there is only so much you can do. I see your point... "The Godfather wasn't recorded on a Zoom." Haha! Good one.

My last Q for the moment: Again, would anyone agree that the audio-post work method as solo is uncommon for feature films? I imagine the shorter features are more likely to be a one-man band, compared to mid-longer length (120-180min), which would already have the budget for bigger studios/teams.

Cheers all!

It's not the length that determines the size of the audio crew, but the budget, of course. I've worked on relatively short films with great budgets that had 3 sound editors and 2 mixers in addition to the editor's own crew, and I've done entire 26-episode cheapo series alone. Lots of low budg indie drama audio post is done by one person, with maybe a different person doing the final mix on a stage (or not....). In docs the solo postie is pretty common, even for larger projects.

phil p

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" how much time then for $2k? "

at your experience level (and only estimating you don't have all the neat-o tools available in your set-up)

perhaps 2 weeks of full time (50 hours)

" audio-post work method as solo is uncommon for feature films? "

here we go again...

this may be a feature length project, but in your context that means nothing.

it is not how long you make it, it is how you make it long.

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I believe John Purcell's book Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures: A Guide to the Invisible Art and also David Yewdall's Practical Art of Motion Picture Sound both have specific sections dealing with schedules for dialog editing, ADR spotting, and the final re-recording mix. Both books are extremely informative and very high on my list.

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I'm reading through Sound for Film and Television (Tomlinson Holman), which is just great! Good read so far.

It's not the length that determines the size of the audio crew, but the budget, of course. I've worked on relatively short films with great budgets that had 3 sound editors and 2 mixers in addition to the editor's own crew, and I've done entire 26-episode cheapo series alone. Lots of low budg indie drama audio post is done by one person, with maybe a different person doing the final mix on a stage (or not....). In docs the solo postie is pretty common, even for larger projects.

phil p

Interesting, I can see there's probably not much trend, it's going to just come down to what people can afford.

Several discussions on Gearslutz here:

http://www.gearslutz...archid=51963504

I have attached a sample contact from Pascal Garneau, who posted it to Gearslutz some years back.

Thanks for that.

Sorry but the GS search is no use to me, I have no idea why. Any special search terms?

" audio-post work method as solo is uncommon for feature films? "

here we go again...

this may be a feature length project, but in your context that means nothing.

it is not how long you make it, it is how you make it long.

In my context? I didn't mean to miss anything if I did... I suppose you share Phil P's view on this (budgets/sizes), otherwise I'd appreciate some explanation.

Thanks all.

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