journal Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Hi Guys, Here is a small problem I have been having for a while: My shotgun Mic input volume is pretty low. I have to have the "Gain/Volume" knob turned almost all the way to the max in order to get a level around -12DB (maybe I should be aiming for a lower volume?). When the sound is good, the noise from the gain being almost or actually at the max is noticeable (at times). This has happened to me with multiple shotgun mics, but mostly with the Rode NTG-2 (more than one physical mic, i.e. my mic and different friends' mics), although it also happened with a couple Omni mics like the Sure SM58. This has also happened with more than 1 recorder. I happened with my older crappy recorder which I thought was just a product of it being old and crappy. But it is also with my Sound Devices 702. I figured I could turn up the gain in the menu, but on the SD702, it seems that other than "Normal" I can choose only "low" and "Normal fade to off" and "Low, fades to off"... There doesn't seem to be anything higher than "Normal." I have to think this isn't just how things are. It seems strange that there are times I want a little more volume level and it is already maxed, and others where I feel I am getting noise from the gain just to get a regular recording volume. Any input or dropping knowledge on my noob self is appreciated. On a side note, I posted this about another more specific problem in the "Technical" section of this forum, then realized no one has posted in there in quite a while... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 What mic? A condenser that requires 48v phantom, an internally battery powered mic? More details about your recording chain will help. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 The SM58 is not an omni mic. and it's output level is about 20 db lower than most condenser mics. since it's a dynamic mic.[no preamp] J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
journal Posted September 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Thanks for clearing up the SM58 misstatement JD. I guess that would explain the lower volume with that mic. What mic? A condenser that requires 48v phantom, an internally battery powered mic? Eric - This is mostly an issue with a Rode NTG-2. It has the option for a battery, but the problem persisted with and without batter (with and without phantom power) and along multiple different NTG-2s. I believe I had another condenser mic that it happened with too, but don't remember which one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Rose Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Further, the SM58 is designed to be close-miked. If you're using it at boom distances, its output will be even lower than normal for a dynamic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrengun Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 All mics are different. I don't have any experience with the NTG2 but I don't often need to turn the gain past 12 o'clock for the NTG3. With my 8060 I often have the input trim around 10 o'clock. But with the AKG Blueline series, depending on the talent's voice, it's not uncommon for me to have the input trim at around 3 o'clock. I also have an SM58 and this varies depending on the talent and how far away they are from the mic. As others pointed out, it's a dynamic mic so it isn't odd for it to have a lower output. These trim positions assume that 12 o'clock is unity gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
journal Posted September 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 You are talking 12 o'clock on the Sound Devices 702 (or other SD with the same knob setup)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Flaitz Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 For both my MKH 416 and MKH 50 under normal vocal level dialogue I often have trim around the 3 o'clock position and fader around 2 o'clock on my 302. That keeps average level around 0 to +4, and peaks around +12 to +16. Varies more based on the actors, whether they know how to project or not is a big factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
journal Posted September 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Man this is not my experience at all with the 702. In order to get levels of -6 to -12 I have the volume knob on the max gain. I don't think there is a separate trim and fader on the 702 recorder (but maybe I'm dumb). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Do you have the input set to line level rather than mic level? It should be mic. If you have line level set then things will be circa 50dB too low, and you will have the knob on max to get a too low level!! Kindest, Sb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
journal Posted September 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Do you have the input set to line level rather than mic level? Nope. I definitely have it set to Mic. I checked that first when I was having the issue. I also doubt it's some bad preamps either because this is how it has worked for both Sound Devices 702 I have owned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Tuzo Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Have you tried switching JUST the cable you're using at the time of the test? Un-balancing a balanced signal will result in an approximate 10dB reduction in signal (and may not be properly passing phantom to your mic) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harris K Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 So, you're not using a mixer in front? If so, what mixer? The ntg-2 was designed as an on camera Mic, and the quality and output reflect its non-pro pricing and specs. A client had one in the office the other day, and I played with it a bit just to see. I indeed found the output a hair low, but moreover it was crappy sounding and noisy anyway. Additionally, I can't tell what you're expecting from your levels. From your post, it appears you may be expecting average dialogue levels to hover at -6dbfs. They shouldn't, and there's a fundamental problem if you're shooting for that. I don't mean to be shitty, but judging by the apparent unfamiliarity with the equipment you mention in your original post, I'd say the first step is learn more, lurk more. The relative position of the gain knob is fairly irrelevant across the ocean of different gear out there. If it sounds like shit, then it is, and that's probably on the operator as much as the gear, especially insofar as a knowledgeable operator requests or provides the proper gear. Tl;dr: the ntg-2 is a crappy video Mic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlimp Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 Journal, I don't think there's anything wrong with your SD702, but you should consider investing in a better mic. A friend of mine showed up with his NTG-2 a few weeks ago, unhappy with the mic's output. We compared it against the NTG-3, setting both mics up in front of a monitor speaker, recorded a few reference signals etc, and if I remember correctly, the NTG-3s output was about 6dB higher. Brutally oversimplified: A more sensitive mic will output a hotter signal that needn't be amplified as much, thus keeping amplification noise lower. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Anderson Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 Have you tried switching JUST the cable you're using at the time of the test? Un-balancing a balanced signal will result in an approximate 10dB reduction in signal (and may not be properly passing phantom to your mic) Ditto. Start troubleshooting this by using a single known-good (or buying a new) cable, and running it directly from the mic to the mixer or recorder. Also try another mixer channel or try going straight to the recorder. If you still have noise you probably have a noisy mic. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
journal Posted September 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Thanks for the input guys. I definitely think it's a mic situation. I "came into" my array of mikes a little while back in a package deal and am not going to have to get exactly what I need. I'm thinking of picking up two new mics. Definitely a better shotgun. I'm considering the NTG3 or one of the Sennheisers that were suggested to me. I am also looking for a nice stereo mic. Any suggestions here are definitely welcome, but I can always search other threads or post a new one if I can't find any. Thanks for the input again everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Do you really need a stereo mic. ? What for----watch out for buyers remorse. J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_bollard Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 I've got two stereo mics that never get out of the cupboard. Do you really need one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlimp Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 I guess he wants to record some atmos, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Rent it J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
journal Posted September 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Yea, I want to start recording a lot more interesting and/or realistic atmospheric sounds for some of the documentary shorts I work on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlimp Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 I'm in the same boat as you.... If you want to be on the safe side, you'll need an MS mic for absolute mono compatibility. You could add a figure 8 to your shotgun, such as the Ambient Emesser, to create an MS setup. Or, if you don't absolutely need MS, get cheaper XY mic such as the Rode NT4 or Audio-Technica AT8022. These will not be the Pro's choice, but should do. Also, there's a super cheap ORTF bar made by Superlux - they have quality issues (which one might expect at that price) - there's a longer thread on these on Gearslutz with sound samples. I'm about to order the Superlux one and give it a try. Might even fit in my retired blimp - If it's crap, I can always send it back. Until now, I have been using my recorder's / camera's built in mics, which of course are less than stellar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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