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invoicing for combined mixer recorder


drpro

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This is not a brand specific question. I am a new owner of a one piece mixer/recorder. My question is how do you charge for the new mixer/recorder. I have when needed used my mixer along with a seperate recorder. Easy to invoice, add the recorder as another line item.

With the one piece system if you are mixer only charge one rate and then if you are mixer plus recorder charge the additional amount? Another question would be always mix and record even if not needed, then should there be an audio problem and the client comes back to you offer the files plus charge as if you had used the recorder all along.

Or finally just raise your rate to reflect the new piece of gear and always record.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks

David

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This is not a brand specific question. I am a new owner of a one piece mixer/recorder. My question is how do you charge for the new mixer/recorder. I have when needed used my mixer along with a seperate recorder. Easy to invoice, add the recorder as another line item.

With the one piece system if you are mixer only charge one rate and then if you are mixer plus recorder charge the additional amount? Another question would be always mix and record even if not needed, then should there be an audio problem and the client comes back to you offer the files plus charge as if you had used the recorder all along.

Or finally just raise your rate to reflect the new piece of gear and always record.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks

David

I personally just quote whatever I would charge for a mixer capable of mixing the job... if for example I didn't feel like breaking down my bag to handle just this one job, because I was going back on something bigger later in the week.

My "standards" would be a MixPre-D, 302, 442, or 552.

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If you can up your rate, DO IT!

Otherwise, I would add the recorder charge when they request it. I guess if you explain to the client that you can record a backup but you have to charge (for their piece of mind) they might go for it. I would be sure to explain that if they don't want to pay upfront, they will have to pay on the back-end...you do run the risk of "upsetting" them.

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I've recently done jobs where they asked what a mixer and 2 lavs would be versus a recorder and some other stuff. They opted for the cheaper kit, but my Nomad bag was ready to go from the day before, so I used it. I did record sound, though I didn't give them a copy at wrap. I told them I was recording, and if we needed it, they could get in touch for us to work something out.

In general I don't line item every individual item. It depends, but I would usually put: Mixer/recorder + Boom + 2 lavs. The additional lines would have additional wireless mics, IFB, camera hop etc. For me, but mixer package would be a 302 or 442 and my mixer-recorders would be a Fusion or a Nomad. I'm still mixing an output to camera, IFB, mix track(s) etc. Some jobs I just put "sound kit" on the invoice. I am more likely to list some items if it is unusually large (lots of Comteks or something).

There have been other threads where people will "sell" those backup recordings if needed. Some people seem to let them buy the upgrade after the fact, plus a recovery charge (labor). I'm guessing some people base the rate on the client. If it's a good client, they might not put the screws to them. Remember, if the audio really sucks on camera, they would have to reshoot, or ADR, the whole piece. That's a LOT more than whatever you would be charging them.

Edited by johnpaul215
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I feel a little bit uneasy about advertising that I have an unpaid backup recording rolling.

I will normally roll one, but if they don't pay for it, no need to bring it up. If it is a mistake that I made or my piece of gear failed... I forgot to change batteries in the hop or didn't plug a cable in... then I can cover my ass and deliver some sort of audio to post. If they come to me, because of something not my fault, like a tape transport issue or something like that, then I can broach the conversation about value, because all of a sudden, that audio is really valuable to them.

Like when you go to the mechanic to have your brakes done... and then a week later you develop an air conditioning fluid leak. It is in the back of your mind, "did the mechanic put a nick in the hose just to get more business?"

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I feel a little bit uneasy about advertising that I have an unpaid backup recording rolling.

I will normally roll one, but if they don't pay for it, no need to bring it up. If it is a mistake that I made or my piece of gear failed... I forgot to change batteries in the hop or didn't plug a cable in... then I can cover my ass and deliver some sort of audio to post. If they come to me, because of something not my fault, like a tape transport issue or something like that, then I can broach the conversation about value, because all of a sudden, that audio is really valuable to them.

Like when you go to the mechanic to have your brakes done... and then a week later you develop an air conditioning fluid leak. It is in the back of your mind, "did the mechanic put a nick in the hose just to get more business?"

Good point. I don't know why I did on this job. It was a weird last minute decision between just a mixer or a mixer+recorder. I wasn't clear what they normally did. Traveling doc reality show that hired a local mixer as they went along. They booked me while I was between setups on a commercial two days before so it was a choppy conversation. When i got to the shoot (one day) they asked if I was recording while looking at my bag. The person that hired me was back in L.A., so I had not spoken to the field crew more than 12 hours before landing on set.

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I think the way I am going to go on this is to keep my basic interview kit (302 w lavs & boom) a separate charge and anything requiring over 3 mics will become a record job. I would hope others do the same and that this becomes standard. As there is really very few reasons to send 6 channels to camera without a backup.

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Thanks for all of the insightful replies. For the basic out the door rig (mixer, boom, 2-wireless) I am all inclusive. Extra wireless, multitrack recorder, client monitors, TC slate, then I do line item on the invoice. Much like John Paul commented above. I like your idea Tom of just rolling, then if there are issues, have a value in mind. Using the 788T as a reference, rental prices seem to be around $150 with the Nomad 6 showing a similar price. So if the job demands multiple tracks then adding the cost of renting a similar out board recorder would fill in the cost of your more expensive mixer/recorder.

Thanks

David Rogers

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I feel a little bit uneasy about advertising that I have an unpaid backup recording rolling.

PLUS 101

Because the next step, often due to a well-established poor process, will be "please cut us some slack, and give us the backup"

And you will, won't you.... ?

If they want the insurance, they need to buy it....

I've been doing an excersize show lately, and the original mixer "threw in" a multi-track 788 backup for f%&*#n nothing....

Complete moron - doesn't understand that what you do in the market has a direct impact on others -

Of course I don't do that for FREE - my machine cost more than TWO of the four cameras in play..... and more than ALL the lights there. I defended my position, and offered the multitrack backup for the typical 100 / day. They declined, and are still happy with

the results.

Despite that transgression, they wanted me. And the backup? None - I'm just feeding cameras correctly...

Week / session three is coming up in a month and on the books.

And my predecessor? --- no referrals from me until they wise up and realize that this is a BUSINESS.

MF

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I feel a little bit uneasy about advertising that I have an unpaid backup recording rolling.

I will normally roll one, but if they don't pay for it, no need to bring it up. If it is a mistake that I made or my piece of gear failed... I forgot to change batteries in the hop or didn't plug a cable in... then I can cover my ass and deliver some sort of audio to post. If they come to me, because of something not my fault, like a tape transport issue or something like that, then I can broach the conversation about value, because all of a sudden, that audio is really valuable to them.

Like when you go to the mechanic to have your brakes done... and then a week later you develop an air conditioning fluid leak. It is in the back of your mind, "did the mechanic put a nick in the hose just to get more business?"

That is a really good point - I am just wondering how likely they are to come to you at all they don't know that you are making a backup recording. If something happens and the camera audio isn't great, but they just hired you to mix, I would think there is no reason for them to think/ know you would have a copy of the audio at all - hence no reason to bother talking to you. I would guess that if they didn't know there was a backup they would be more likely to live with it or check into other ways of fixing it rather than coming to you. Correct me if I'm wrong though - I am doing a job like this tomorrow and I've been planning to bring a backup recorder just in case so this is valuable info!

-Mike

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Michael, if they copied my CF card, I would have invoiced for it. It's not like the extra $ would bankrupt the production. I suppose it could have turned into an awkward situation, but to be blunt it was a first time client. If they were going to pull something on me, I wouldn't worry about burning that bridge because I have a lot of excellent clients. I would always like to work with/for more awesome people, but I don't have time for the ones that are a pain in my ass.

We were working on a show with guns. Specifically a Gatling Gun. I'm also kind of in love with my (relatively) new Nomad, and wanted to use it more, especially under that situation. The bag was built, so it made my life easier. Even if I never hit record, the Nomad is a damn fine mixer. It probably would have been helpful to have the iso tracks, but it's not my decision.

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JohnPaul - with regrets, upon re-reading my post, it is easy to see that "... you will.." might have seemed directed at you personally.

Let me assure that that is not the case... a professional like yourself does know the value of his investments and I know that from your history here on the group.... I was trying to be a bit more generic, and perhaps failed at that...

Frankly, beyond whatever technical education or discourse that might come out of this newsgroup, personally I am much much more into reflecting and hoping to foster the important "business elements" to our world, which as a 30+ yr veteran I see quite a bit on the wane lately... I know that a lot of newbies are getting nearly their entire education here, and it is scary that such basic things as actually charging enough for your gear and recouping investments, daresay PROFIT from them, isn't always in the forefront.

As our tools are seeming to evolve into hybrids - mixer / recorder combos, the landscape is changing quite a bit. In a perfect world, a sound package that has a couple of good diversity wireless systems, and double system record capability should be no less than 350 per day - and ALL shoots would be wise enough to employ multitracking and budget accordingly....

Audio being the perennial / constant bastard child when it comes to budgets - well I only see these advanced tools being pounced upon by the producer / production world for their utility, but lumped into the odd collective unit called "the basic EFP kit" for slim to NO additional revenue...

That said, I seem to remember paying around 5000 for my SQN 4S series 5 almost ten years ago.... and look what you can get for 4-5k now...

And you are dead on - the Zaxcom preamps are indeed awesome, so the Nomad (don't have one yet) is no doubt an excellent mixer with a buttload of headroom and lotsa outputs too....

Happy weekend...

MF

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I just don't get why everyone doesn't record. Recorders are cheap. It shouldn't even be a question. Don't accept a rate that's too low to bring a recorder of some kind (Zoom or whatever). If you're a professional sound person, then bring professional gear. That includes a recorder which you know and trust, unlike the camera system.

If you don't own a recording device, then you are on a different level. Not a true professional, in my opinion. Sorry if that insults you.

Once you own one, then always bring it, always use it, and always charge for it. You are now at a different level. If production wants a professional, then they pay for one. If they don't, then they can take their chances with someone who doesn't own professional equipment.

Robert

There are numerous jobs that don't require a recorder (short docs, some corporate stuff) and that don't have my budget for it. There's nothing wrong with doing a traditional single system shoot if that's the budget and it makes sense. A beta snake into an C300 or Varicam is exactly what the client needs for these kinds of things. Mainly it's about having agreeable terms on a gig, both budgetary and logistic.

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There are numerous jobs that don't require a recorder (short docs, some corporate stuff) and that don't have my budget for it. There's nothing wrong with doing a traditional single system shoot if that's the budget and it makes sense. A beta snake into an C300 or Varicam is exactly what the client needs for these kinds of things. Mainly it's about having agreeable terms on a gig, both budgetary and logistic.

I know this. Which is why I deleted my rant shortly after posting it.

Perhaps you could delete this post too, then it'd be gone forever :-)

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Along these same lines.. I have these rates:

a) Production Sound Mixer Kit (ENG) = XXX.XX/day

8) Production Sound Mixer Kit (cart setup) = XXX.XX/day

c) Expenses like batteries, tape, parking, etc.

Then there's the labor @ XX.XX/hr. If it's a 10 hour day, it's pretty easy XX.XX/hr X 10.

Labor is subject to OT after 10 hours. Equipment is on a per day basis, with NO half day rentals.

There's no need for the production to get all into my equipment, other than trying to give me the heads up on helping me figure out whats needed for the production day.

If someone questions any of this.. tell them that labor is hourly (subject to tax even), and equipment is flat rate, and if there's expenses its added. These are the only itemizations that I think anyone needs.

-Richard

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I'm fairly new, but I have a question on this. I only own a basic ENG package, mixer, recorder, boom, 2 wireless. If the client doesn't pay for the recorder, I bring it, but leave stowed. If I ever sold the mixer and recorder and replaced it with a mixer/recorder ( I don't actually see myself doing that as it'd be nice to have an extra mixer around) I'd just rent a 302 or such from LSC for $25-30/day. No sense risking damage to a $5,000+ investment on a gig that's not paying for it.

Which actually brings me to a point regarding L&D. If production has paid you a kit rental for your basic ENG kit and you include your expensive mixer/recorder and something terrible happens to it, do you think production should cover it? Like, if you could do the job with a 302 but you brought your nomad 12 in your basic kit...?

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I'm fairly new, but I have a question on this. I only own a basic ENG package, mixer, recorder, boom, 2 wireless. If the client doesn't pay for the recorder, I bring it, but leave stowed. If I ever sold the mixer and recorder and replaced it with a mixer/recorder ( I don't actually see myself doing that as it'd be nice to have an extra mixer around) I'd just rent a 302 or such from LSC for $25-30/day. No sense risking damage to a $5,000+ investment on a gig that's not paying for it.

Which actually brings me to a point regarding L&D. If production has paid you a kit rental for your basic ENG kit and you include your expensive mixer/recorder and something terrible happens to it, do you think production should cover it? Like, if you could do the job with a 302 but you brought your nomad 12 in your basic kit...?

I would say no unless there is some kind of gross negligence involved. In either case you should have your package insured even now as eng kits do get stollen from cars, garages and all kinds of other places that do not fall under the umbrella of a productions coverage.

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" If production has paid you a kit rental for your basic ENG kit and you include your expensive mixer/recorder and something terrible happens to it, do you think production should cover it? "

real productions have insurance, and the production only has to cover the deductible, the policy covers the rest, and of course they should L&D whatever it is... or was !

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