Mischa de Wilt Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Hi there, I'm sort of new here (have been reading, no posting), so maybe a little introduction seems appropriate! I've been doing commercial and free video / motion design work for a while now, mainly shooting on a DSLR. I do this with a friend and we're based in The Netherlands. Sound hasn't exactly been stellar in our productions (filmmakers ahoy), so after loads of reading up, we decided to upgrade to the following setup: Main microphone (besides lavs): Sanken CS-3e Mixer: SD Mixpre-D Recording device: Either the Zoom H4n or directly into the Canon 7D or iPad We're planning on two setups, recording straight into the Canon 7D (no syncing in post, seems a bit easier to setup) and the option of recording using the Zoom H4n (more mobile). Below is a description of our setup so far. Please forgive me if I don't make sense or ask for the obvious, I'm trying to learn about audio, but I'm not exactly an expert. Setup 1. SD Mixpre-D to Canon 7D We have been doing some tests with the Mixpre running a cable from the unbalanced mic out straight into the Canon 7D (with the new manual audio firmware update). In the first test we put on the tone oscillator and on the 7D we matched the dB output to the display of the LED's on the Mixpre. We got a lot of noise in this setup. Is this coming from the 7D? In the next test, we put the audio levels in the 7D almost all the way down and we got little, to no noise. However, we're not sure how to monitor audio on the Mixpre with the recording levels being much lower. Do we just figure out the difference between the recording and monitoring or is there another solution? A different question: on the Mixpre, I can set the recording to L C R, since we're using a mono mic, is it wise to keep it on L? Setup 2. SD Mixpre-D to Zoom H4n I found this article by filmmaker Dan McComb explaining how he hooked up his Mixpre to a Zoom H4n, however, he seems to change his mind about the setup quite regularly. So I'm not sure if this is the way to go or not. Do any of you guys have experience with setting this up? Would the quality of recording to the Zoom be better than to the Canon 7D? Thanks for taking your time reading! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent R. Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Go for setup 2. Line level from mix pre outputs to zoom. Indeed shotgun on L and lavs on R. Monitor the zoom for confidence. Never trust the 7D audio recording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 The Zoom is a lot better than the 7D. There is no way of getting a return signal from the Canon to the Mixpre, so even if your sound sounds good on the Mixpre, you will have no idea of what the sound in the camera sounds like until it's after the fact. Myself, I use a 302 with a Zoom H4n. I use the main XLR outputs of the 302, and in the 302 I pad the signal down to mic level, and set the input level on the Zoom H4n to 63. I put the headphone out on the Zoom to 100 and have a stereo minijack cable from the HP output to the Return in on the 302. That way I can monitor the sound on the Zoom from the mixer. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VM Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 The mix pre D and the canon may give you a correct sound. But the alignment is touchy ! If you do not do it correctly you will get noise or distorsion. When recording the sound you absolutely have to give a good level to have good result. I have posted here an example of a voice recorded by a 5D via the Telemak (similar to the excellent mix pre D) versus the SD788. http://leblogsonore.com/enregistrer-ou-pas-le-son-sur-un-dslr/?lang=en If I were you, I would ask a sound guy to show me how to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sounddguy Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 For levels to the Zoom H4n, send a zero level tone from the SD MixPe and set the the Zoom H4n to read - 20 dBfs for dynamic content. For a more steady level of content, like a calm interview, you could start the Zoom at - 12 dBfs. The object is to never let the Zoom's level peak. What cables you need I can't tell you as I have not worked with the Zoom H4n. You can "also" send the audio to the camera, but this would be for reference only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 " The Zoom is a lot better than the 7D. " The Zoom is a bit better than the 7D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomboom Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 A lot, a bit... it depends... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomboom Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Mischa: a few cables for DSLRs here that might help (just scroll down the page a tad) : http://www.sescom.co...oduct-index.asp ...some ''AGC disable'' cables, splitters so you can monitor audio, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 " The Zoom is a lot better than the 7D. " The Zoom is a bit better than the 7D. With a mixer in front of it, the zoom is a great sounding gear for its price. It's not a 702 by any means but still, a lot better in many ways than the 7d, not just soundwise but functionality wise as well. Have you ever used an h4n with a mixer in front mike? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 (edited) "With a mixer in front of it, the zoom is a great sounding gear for its price. " yes, though I prefer TASCAM and Marantz over Zoom (Sampson)... " Have you ever used an h4n with a mixer in front mike? " yes, though I prefer TASCAM and Marantz over Zoom (Samson)... Edited September 11, 2012 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapio Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 yes, though I prefer TASCAM and Marantz over Zoom (Sampson)... It's Samson, not Sampson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmahaAudio Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 " The Zoom is a lot better than the 7D. " The Zoom is a bit better than the 7D. It's Samson, not Sampson. And they're the importers, not the manufacturers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mischa de Wilt Posted September 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Thanks for all the advice and pointers! I'll do some more testing using the Zoom tomorrow and see if I can produce something decent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VM Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 A lot, a bit... it depends... I totally agree with Senator's to add : a bit better but not a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Reineke Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 The H4n's line-in (1/4" of the XLR/1/4" combo) is compromised to accept instrument level as well and will handle max. input level of +2dBm. therefore the tape out of the MixPre would be a better choice. Lowering the Zoom's record level does nothing to attenuate the input stage, where clipping occurs when exceeding it's max level and using line-level does not "bypass" the awful Zoom preamps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRCS Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 I use a Mix-Pre-D along with an H4N with results much better than direct to my brothers 5D. Use the unbalanced mic level out TA3 and go into the back 1/8" external mic input on the H4N. Monitor the meters on the H4N and adjust the level on the H4N accordingly... Send a scratch track to the camera via wireless (using the tape out on the MPD) or if you want to be tethered get an XLRF to 1/8" cable and switch to mic level on the main output(s) on the MPD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mischa de Wilt Posted September 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Once again, thanks for all the tips and pointers. I use a Mix-Pre-D along with an H4N with results much better than direct to my brothers 5D. Use the unbalanced mic level out TA3 and go into the back 1/8" external mic input on the H4N. Monitor the meters on the H4N and adjust the level on the H4N accordingly... Thanks for the advice, this worked out fine on our last shoots! Send a scratch track to the camera via wireless (using the tape out on the MPD) or if you want to be tethered get an XLRF to 1/8" cable and switch to mic level on the main output(s) on the MPD. I honestly have no clue how to do that, could you explain in a way that a non-audio expert like me could understand? I tried to Google it, but didn't get the right results. Seems like an interesting option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent R. Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Scratch track = guide audio, for later re-syncing Tethered = With an umbilical cord, old fashioned cable between recorder and camera XLR = 3 pin audio connector 1/8 connector = mini jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 " Sound hasn't exactly been stellar in our productions (filmmakers ahoy), so after loads of reading up, we decided to upgrade to the following setup: " buying gear is not going to make your sound any more stellar if you do not understand it, and know how to use it for best results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRCS Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 Scratch track = guide audio, for later re-syncing Tethered = With an umbilical cord, old fashioned cable between recorder and camera XLR = 3 pin audio connector 1/8 connector = mini jack Thanks for the translation! Worked great for me on a shoot with two 5Ds (one transmitter in my bag and a receiver on both cameras) and made post very efficient! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 I work for a Producer who pays me union wages for commercial work. This is their setup. I'm sending a wireless signal from my Nomad to a Zoom H4n, which is then feeding a 7D (with the stock lens) via a 1/8" cable with a built in pad. My audio is used as backup since they are more then happy with what is being recorded to the 7D. Did I mention I get paid very well to do this. haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mischa de Wilt Posted September 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 " Sound hasn't exactly been stellar in our productions (filmmakers ahoy), so after loads of reading up, we decided to upgrade to the following setup: " buying gear is not going to make your sound any more stellar if you do not understand it, and know how to use it for best results. Which is the exact reason I'm asking these questions :-] Thanks for the explanations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 " reason I'm asking these questions " it takes years of experience to get years of experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Louis Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Use the unbalanced mic level out TA3 and go into the back 1/8" external mic input on the H4N. Oh sure, you're referring to the mini-xlr. But can anyone point to a thread addressing the degradation of signal when going out to a "mini-jack"/3.5mm stereo? Particularly when pro-gear like the pre-d could utilize xlr inputs to the recorder. Maybe you could chime in here. Or for that manner, why one would gain a consumer recorder like the zoom when one could be taking advantage of the line-level output from the mix-pre to minimize the S/N on the recorder (I know, a leading question)? I didn't understand some of the earlier advice in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 James: " addressing the degradation of signal when going out to a "mini-jack"/3.5mm stereo? Particularly when pro-gear like the pre-d could utilize xlr inputs to the recorder. Maybe you could chime in here. " you cannot change the lowest denominator and make it better... I could argue that just going to a mini-trs does not degrade anything, just as the Zoom having xlr's does not improve its audio capabilities. beware of style over substance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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