Nomad Lite

[James Arnold]

Sorry to hear of your troubles but I think your experience is rather the exception than the rule. I believe that Johnpaul was addressing the issue from the perspective of the majority of the 100 or more owners of Nomad who have been out working with their recorders, earning money and enjoying using it. Of the 3 weeks out of 6 that you have had your Nomad, were you able to work with it at all or was it a defective unit from the git go? What repairs were needed that consumed 3 weeks?

Thanks for your kind post Jeff. I think we are perhaps a bit behind on Nomad use here in the UK after problems with availability, so much less time has elapsed in which many of us could start to pay off the cost of purchase.

My ownership is probably slightly longer than six weeks, but after some initial to-and-fro with my dealer, a three week shoot and shipping to and from the US plus repair time it has been out of my hands for about that time - quite costly in replacement rentals.

James Arnold

[kl]

thank you for the history lesson, but, Jeff, we're saying the same thing. I might express it in simpler but never the less correct terms. The difference between 'the earliest' and 'the first'.....it's the same, right? No history lesson necessary here

You are absolutely wrong, ill-informed and completely unaware of the history of the technology and the formats in the field of production sound recording for picture. Okay, here goes the history lesson:

"Jeff, the Deva was an early, maybe even the earliest digital location hard drive recorder"

Not early, not the earliest, but the first ever portable production sound recorder that recorded digital audio as a computer file --- I know this because I was the first to use the Deva I in production on a motion picture and there had been no other device to do this sort of recording before the Deva (which is why no one else had ever done it in production in motion picture sound recording).

"The technology though was well tested and used by thousands before, just not in the field. Computer recording (that's what it is) was not invented by Zaxcom."

No one has ever claimed that Zaxcom invented digital file recording. As I stated to our Union sponsored seminar on multitrack recording while holding up the Deva I, the amazing thing about the Deva portable production sound recorder is that it brings the tried and true process of producing digital audio files, the de facto standard working procedure in POST production sound recording, to the Production Sound Mixer working in the field --- and all of this in the first ever rugged, dependable, battery operated location field recorder. For the first time ever, Production Sound Mixers are able to produce and deliver for the master location sound recording, the very same (computer) sound files that everyone else working on the soundtrack (in post) on a movie have been doing for years. Revolutionary? Evolutionary? Makes no difference to me what you call it as long as the accomplishments and achievements by Zaxcom with the original Deva, and those that supported and pushed for its adoption in our industry, are recognized and celebrated.

Ok, all I said it was an 'evolutionary' step - which is great. And which is exactly what I said, Zaxcom put the available technology into a self contained field recorder. What's with the history lessons?

"And of course digital field recorders have been around for years before the Deva, they were called DAT machines"

Again, this shows your lack of understanding of not only the technology but the history of production recording in our industry. As you may or may not know, I was also the first person to use DAT in production for motion pictures. The industry at large, the facilities and the people in post sound, were 100% against this format and refused to even consider the DAT machines "digital field recorders." The early adopters of the DAT format had a very rough road trying to promote their use of an unknown and unproven method of production sound recording for motion pictures. Additionally, you are correct in saying that DAT machines were digital field recorders, but they utilized linear tape based recording technology that required very little change in the methods or workflow that we had been using for years and years (the Nagra years). The transition to file based recording was a far more difficult thing to accomplish. Again, I know these things very personally because I was the one that was having to do these things.

Jeff, I just mentioned that before Zaxcom there was digital field recording well alive. And, don't worry, I don't have neither a lack of understand the technology nor the history. What does what wrote have to do with that you're the first person who used a DAT recorder....as you say. The difference between linear digital recording - remember cassette storage of the Commodore 64 i.e. - and non linear is that a hard drive with its different technology was/is used for storing/writing files. Done for long times before it was appropriated for field recording. Great. That we sound mixers now record in the same file format as used in post is nice and save a step or two, voila. It took a bit longer with cameras to switch from linear to hard-drives/flash cards etc. as they write more data. It's fine but fundamentally it's not such a big change.

"Besides changing the recording medium from tape to hard drive the essentials did not change that much, besides that this made it easier to do multi tracks in the field. But that has been done before too."

Again, this simplistic and inaccurate statement reveals that you have not had to personally shepherd in either of these methods, linear DAT recording or file based recording. The change from tape to hard drive may have been easy for you but that is because a whole lot of people fought for this change because we passionately felt that it was the right thing to do; it wasn't easy and "the essentials" in terms of integrating what we do in production with what they do in post, DID have to change, a lot!

Jeff, I'm talking about the technology behind all that and not about the struggles to establish new technology in Hollywood. New technology by definition has to struggle to overcome old, but never the less tried and working technology as there are many powers not wanting to change out of various reasons.

Excuse my simple words, but please don't call it 'simplistic or inaccurate', because it's not.

[Bob]

I get what you are saying, but here in the UK Zaxcom Nomads are still a relatively new product addition. In fact I think the delivery time on them is still 6 weeks at very minimum. This means that there are very few recordists with an 8 or 12 who have had time to accrue any kind of rental earnings from their machines that might offset this extremely sudden price drop. I happily bought my Nomad 8 as a lighter, more ENG friendly alternative to the Sound Devices 788 with a similar price point and many built in advantages over the latter. The release of the Lite and 10 turns these small advantages into items I have paid dearly for, particularly as several of the 'extra' features of the 8 and 12 are still in development. While I really like the Zaxnet IFB option I am yet to take the plunge into a full Zaxcom wireless array. The difference between the cost of my 8 and a 10 or Lite might therefore have been better spent on something like the Timecode buddy or an alternative IFB system : or even a Zaxcom camera hop. A more accurate Apple comparison might be that having only just made the iPhone 5 available to UK customers Apple almost immediately release the 5S at a lower price point.

Like OneLouder I'm having a hard time not feeling a bit swindled by what feels like a somewhat cynical move on Zaxcom's part and rather less likely to invest any more of my hard earned money in the companies products. I'm very interested to hear what the response to us 'early' adopters of the 8 and 12 will be. The offer of a cheaper upgrade to a 12 seems redundant as in my world of entertainment, documentary and reality programming 12 tracks are very, very rarely required from one recorder.

Jesus Christ man lite'n up. Because a manufacturer changes a product line they don't owe you a thing. The simple fact that Nomad is upgradeable is pretty cool in the first place.

Products change, deal with it. I bought a very expensive Panasonic plasma TV a while back a few weeks after I ordered it and it was by the way mounted on my wall for less than a week Panasonic upgraded the model. Same model number same price just upgraded a component to give a richer darker black.

Did they do anything for me? Did they give me a refund? Did they offer to give me an upgrade? No!

So stop your whining and change your diaper and grow up! And if you hate your Nomad that much just sell it and stop polluting this thread.

[James Arnold]

Jesus Christ man lite'n up. Because a manufacturer changes a product line they don't owe you a thing. The simple fact that Nomad is upgradeable is pretty cool in the first place.

Products change deal with it. I bought a very expensive Panasonic plasma TV a while back a few weeks after I ordered it and it was by the way mounted on my wall for less than a week Panasonic upgraded the model. Same model number same price just upgraded a component to give a richer darker black.

Did they do anything for me? Did they give me a refund? Did they offer to give me an upgrade? No!

So stop your whining and change your diaper and grow up! And if you hate your Nomad that much just sell it and stop polluting this thread.

Are you 14 years old? I doubt an internet keyboard warrior like yourself would have the balls to make such pointlessly insulting comments to anyone in person. Doesn't take a genius to see who's really 'polluting this thread'. Don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out, chump...

Oh, and for the record - in situations like the one you describe it's common for good retailers to offer an exchange or upgrade to the newer model. If you were unable to secure this it suggests you are dumber than you sound, though I'm getting a headache trying to imagine how that would be possible.

[Bob]

Oh, and for the record - in situations like the one you describe it's common for good retailers to offer an exchange or upgrade to the newer model.

Well they are.

Or are you just not picking up on that?

[fieldmixer]

Jimbo, I guess you might have missed this, it's clearly in this thread but...Your 8 will soon be a 12. With nothing more needed than an unlock code. How's that for an upgrade. 4 extra channels for *maybe* 195$. Be happy.

Your 8 would not have been cheaper anyhow the 8 has a different, (more expensive) board with higher processing power than the 6 (10). You're all set for USB functionality and higher track count automix.

Btw, Forget TimecodeBuddy, you have Zaxnet.

[RadoStefanov]

Jimbo, I guess you might have missed this, it's clearly in this thread but...Your 8 will soon be a 12. With nothing more needed than an unlock code. How's that for an upgrade. Be happy. 4 more channels. Forget timecode buddy, you have Zaxnet.

Great newd. My 8 will be 12...will make me record music...

[Christian Spaeth]

Jimbo, I guess you might have missed this, it's clearly in this thread but...Your 8 will soon be a 12. With nothing more needed than an unlock code. How's that for an upgrade. 4 extra channels for *maybe* 195$. Be happy.

Your 8 would not have been cheaper anyhow the 8 has a different, (more expensive) board with higher processing power than the 6 (10). You're all set for USB functionality and higher track count automix.

Btw, Forget TimecodeBuddy, you have Zaxnet.

I thought I read all the posts but I missed that too. Where did you get the amount of 195 $? Myself, I never had the need for more than 8 tracks yet but might be a good thing for future projects...

[Chris Woodcock]

Are you 14 years old? I doubt an internet keyboard warrior like yourself would have the balls to make such pointlessly insulting comments to anyone in person. Doesn't take a genius to see who's really 'polluting this thread'. Don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out, chump...

Oh, and for the record - in situations like the one you describe it's common for good retailers to offer an exchange or upgrade to the newer model. If you were unable to secure this it suggests you are dumber than you sound, though I'm getting a headache trying to imagine how that would be possible.

He has a point though

I remember when I bought my first mp3 player before the ipod existed it was a little sony device and cost just under £300. A month later the price dropped by almost £100. Its how business works companies change products and prices all the time.

Was I entitled by Sony to get my money back? Hell no I just accepted it.

So what do you fell Zaxcom owe you? For that matter what do they owe me? Nothing

You have hardly been swindled that is such an over exaggeration

[James Arnold]

Well they are.

Or are you just not picking up on that?

Stop cherry picking my posts. I've made it abundantly clear that it is not the upgrade path available to me that grates, but the change in product line up that devalues my very recently purchased Nomad 8 and makes the alternatives look like much better uses of my cash. As many people have pointed out, you buy gear based on what is available and what suits your own workflow at the time. I'm simply unlucky that my timing was off when I bought my machine. Can I do anything about this? Maybe. I might persuade my local dealer to swap out the 8 for a Lite. Does the fact that this is 'standard' business practice mean I can't be pissed off? NO. I'm not the only person in this thread who feels a little annoyed about these developments and yes, we will jump on the internet and grumble. And in the small world of kit manufacturers that we inhabit a bit of grumbling can go a long way - witness the recent software/hardware fix for the Nomad screen, something that I've moaned about to Zaxcom for quite some time.

I thought I read all the posts but I missed that too. Where did you get the amount of 195 $? Myself, I never had the need for more than 8 tracks yet but might be a good thing for future projects...

I'm not sure about the $195 either. Certainly 12 tracks is way more than I ever want, but if it's that cheap...

He has a point though

I remember when I bought my first mp3 player before the ipod existed it was a little sony device and cost just under £300. A month later the price dropped by almost £100. Its how business works companies change products and prices all the time.

Was I entitled by Sony to get my money back? Hell no I just accepted it.

So what do you fell Zaxcom owe you? For that matter what do they owe me? Nothing

You have hardly been swindled that is such an over exaggeration

Well forgive my hyperbole, but I still think it's a bit of a kick in the nuts for some of us. Glenn has been gracious enough to contact me personally about this, and while he maintains that it is a necessary tactic to remain competitive, he agrees that the timing is not ideal. It also has nothing to do with entitlement, but good customer service. In similar circumstances even large companies can be persuaded to offer exchanges, particularly if they operate through dealerships. We are lucky enough to do business in an industry where equipment manufacturers have a smaller and more personal market to trade with - our opinions can and do make a difference, if not always when we want it. Shrugging ones shoulders gets you nothing...

And I still don't deserve to have some twerp direct a torrent of foul mouthed abuse in my direction (since judiciously edited by Jeff) because he's having a bad day. The usual response to this kind of drivel runs along the lines of 'go forth and multiply'.

James

[fieldmixer]

I thought I read all the posts but I missed that too. Where did you get the amount of 195 $? Myself, I never had the need for more than 8 tracks yet but might be a good thing for future projects...

That's the price difference between an 8 and the newly priced 12. If I am mistaken someone please correct me. Glenn?

[Jack Norflus]

I'm not sure about the $195 either. Certainly 12 tracks is way more than I ever want, but if it's that cheap...

That's the price difference between an 8 and the newly priced 12. If I am mistaken someone please correct me. Glenn?

That is all correct if you currently own a Nomad 8 you can upgrade to a 12 for the difference in price.

So for slightly under $200 you will get 12 tracks, USB recording / Key Board support, Zaxnet, and when implemented a 10 track auto-mixer.

[Olle Sjostrom]

I have to chime in here, seeing as I was about to purchase a Nomad 8;

Personally, this is good news for me. I wanted a 12 to begin with, but the price and the features couldn't justify paying more than the 8, since back then there really was no big difference in features.

Imagine the poor sod who just bought a brand new 552 just months before the 664 announcement. Would they have been mad and started barking on SD? Don't think so...

Might be an unfair comparison, but still a legit one as I see it, since Zaxcom are actually providing upgrades, not an entirely new machine.

So it looks as I'll be getting a Nomad 12. Sweet!

[RPSharman]

Jesus Christ man lite'n up. Because a manufacturer changes a product line they don't owe you a thing. The simple fact that Nomad is upgradeable is pretty cool in the first place.

Products change, deal with it. I bought a very expensive Panasonic plasma TV a while back a few weeks after I ordered it and it was by the way mounted on my wall for less than a week Panasonic upgraded the model. Same model number same price just upgraded a component to give a richer darker black.

Did they do anything for me? Did they give me a refund? Did they offer to give me an upgrade? No!

So stop your whining and change your diaper and grow up! And if you hate your Nomad that much just sell it and stop polluting this thread.

I bet your TV worked as advertised for the amount of time you owned it before the new model was released. And had you bought it from a local retailer with a normal return policy, you could have returned it and purchased the new one, or received a credit if the price was reduced on the old model.

[fieldmixer]

That business model might work for massive television set manufactures that sell millions of units... But a manufacturer that hundreds?

[RPSharman]

That business model might work fir massive television manufactures that sell millions of units but... A manufacturer that sells hundreds?

I disagree. In a niche market, where every customer counts, and word of mouth spreads across the entire customer base, I'd think it even more critical to "make it right".

[fieldmixer]

I know what you are saying but, was anything really Wrong done? Maybe if someone bought a 7000$ 12 in the last 30 days something could be offered but. Has anyone bought a 12 in the last 30 days?

[RPSharman]

I think anyone who has had greater than 30 days of uninterrupted use is probably out of luck.

But I will point out NOBODY has a Nomad with all the advertised features.

[MT Groove]

I disagree. In a niche market, where every customer counts, and word of mouth spreads across the entire customer base, I'd think it even more critical to "make it right".

+++1

[daniel]

Fascinating thread - especially when it comes to the ethical vs commercial interests involved in the manufacture, marketing and distribution process. I'm chiming in despite having no intentions of buying any of the newly released/announced recorders anytime soon.

Observations and questions:

Over the years Zaxcom has announced and brought to market highly innovative tools for our industry but Zaxcom have also consistently prompted some people (including owners) to question their marketing strategy in relation to delivery dates, updates and advertised functionality etc. Nomad, Lite and Maxx do not seem to have transcended these issues - was anyone sure that they would?

Comparing niche industrial products and the accompanying marketing and distribution to high volume consumer products sold to a (generally) less demanding public does not seem quite right to me but if people are going to do that i think a detail has been missed from the debate.

The more complex and technical a product is the more time and investment is needed to bring it to market. These things are planned over many months and years. For example, I think Apple (in a consumer market) probably have very good idea what the 5s is going to be like and probably even the 6 and they have almost certainly penciled the release dates in the calendar too. They not only know this stuff but they know that we know they know this stuff hence site like macrumours. So if you research buying an iphone 4s at the end of the design cycle you will quickly be told "hang on for the new 1, its going to be better and push the price of the old 1 down". If you lost your iphone 4s in july and you simply can't wait, you buy another and take the hit but i think a lot of people would make do with an old handset and give themselves the chance to make an informed decision in september for example. Sound Devices did not released the 664 in response to the nomad - this recorder took longer to design and build etc than that time frame - they released it in response to what they heard sound ops asking for over the last few years combined with what they had the means to produce. But this Zaxcom thing looks a little different.

IE. Did Zaxcom (and the dealers) know when they started selling the first Nomads that they would also be releasing the Maxx and Lite so soon after?

If they did then i can understand why some feel jaded or disappointed - it does look a little cynical.

If they did NOT know at the time of selling the first Nomads that they would be updating that current product so soon, it kind of looks a little chaotic or at least quite anxious about loosing sales to competing products (and they must have known SD would be bringing something new to market soon).

Over the years of reading these Zaxcom threads the impression i get is that Zaxcom's competitors are fairly clear on what share of the market they will get with any given product, plan around that and are philosophical about the outcomes, whereas Glenn seems to be trying to push that particular envelope as far as he believes he reasonably can. Perhaps it is the same instinct that prompts him to push the boundaries of innovation as far as he has with Zaxcom's recorders and wireless but then again perhaps Zaxcom have a business model which demands the marketing and promotion be pushed just that bit harder (than the others) and the products have to play catch up or quick change in response.

respect to all involved.

dan.

[brian albritton]

Zaxcom has been aware of this and it is currently being addressed. They have been working on new software that will expand the ENG home screen. You will soon be able to auto-trim all 10 inputs, pan all 10 inputs, mix input 7 thru 10 right from the ENG screen with essentially just the menu knob.

if I were designing the interface with the hardware available already, I would make it so you could press a button and "flip" the faders from 1-6 to 7-12. 1 beep in the headphones means 1-7, 2 beeps means 7-12. that way you don't have to look down to change levels. not ideal, but a reasonable workaround.

I call it "zaxflip" - already filed the trademark, so don't even think about it.

[Olle Sjostrom]

Over the years of reading these Zaxcom threads the impression i get is that Zaxcom's competitors are fairly clear on what share of the market they will get with any given product, plan around that and are philosophical about the outcomes, whereas Glenn seems to be trying to push that particular envelope as far as he believes he reasonably can. Perhaps it is the same instinct that prompts him to push the boundaries of innovation as far as he has with Zaxcom's recorders and wireless but then again perhaps Zaxcom have a business model which demands the marketing and promotion be pushed just that bit harder (than the others) and the products have to play catch up or quick change in response.

I think Zaxcom's more aggressive marketing and quickly changing does not ring desperate, but proving that they can quickly adapt.

Sound Devices is a strong brand worldwide, but, at least here in Sweden, Zaxcom isn't. So I imagine they have to be more aggressive to reach over the pond(s) and be quicker and better than their counterparts. Who wins? Not sure and it doesn't matter.

if I were designing the interface with the hardware available already, I would make it so you could press a button and "flip" the faders from 1-6 to 7-12. 1 beep in the headphones means 1-7, 2 beeps means 7-12. that way you don't have to look down to change levels. not ideal, but a reasonable workaround.

I call it "zaxflip" - already filed the trademark, so don't even think about it.

Actually a very good idea. Probably doable as well :S

[RadoStefanov]

I have no problem that I upgraded back in april.

I paid $1300 for the upgrade but was able to work with 7-8 channels on 5 different productions that paid for my new zaxcom wireless and living expenses...

without the upgrade, I was not going to be hired.

So I don't care if the price is lower. I am actually happy that my Nomad 8 will be Nomad 12.

[RadoStefanov]

if I were designing the interface with the hardware available already, I would make it so you could press a button and "flip" the faders from 1-6 to 7-12. 1 beep in the headphones means 1-7, 2 beeps means 7-12. that way you don't have to look down to change levels. not ideal, but a reasonable workaround.

I call it "zaxflip" - already filed the trademark, so don't even think about it.

Great Idea. I processed the same back in april. My mackie midi controller works the same way and while not perfect it works great when I want to drive more then 8 faders.

[fieldmixer]

Zaxfilp. Love it. I'll buy that.