TheScottA Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Hello all, Just looking to see if anyone can help out a newb with Undercovers. Started using them and its either hit or miss. Any advice on placement that has worked well? Probably depends on what people are wearing I would imagine. I am using Tramm Tr150's and typically if male its on bare skin middle of chest, if female typically on an undershirt under blouse on right or left side of chest. Also what is an acceptable amount of scratch noise if any? If I'm doing an interview and people are not moving much it works great. I work for a Church and we are doing a lot of location filming with people talking and walking in various locations (i.e. beach, forest, downtown). Any ideas or advice would be appreciated! Scott Anderson Production Manager Crossroads Church Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Hi, and welcome, " Started using them and its either hit or miss. " this has been reported in several previous threads (try a search of "forums", or a Google search of this site. There is, as one thread makes clear, no single or easy answer... " if female typically on an undershirt under blouse on right or left side of chest. " middle is usually better, often much better. " Also what is an acceptable amount of scratch noise if any? " it depends, and is subjective... " Any ideas or advice would be appreciated! " "Laving" is somewhat a black art, and is something that gets better, quicker, and easier with experience. there is a wealth of information in a number of threads on this forum, and frankly, it is still all as valuable today as it was when originally posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrider Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 There is one thing you can do in advance to make your life easier. If you know in advance who your talent will be, see if it is possible to make suggestions regarding wardrobe. Button-up shirts are easier to conceal a mic in than a tight t-shirt. Synthetic fabrics are noisier than cotton. If you can get off to a good start with wardrobe, it makes your job easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Hello all, Just looking to see if anyone can help out a newb with Undercovers. Started using them and its either hit or miss. Any advice on placement that has worked well? Probably depends on what people are wearing I would imagine. I am using Tramm Tr150's and typically if male its on bare skin middle of chest, if female typically on an undershirt under blouse on right or left side of chest. Also what is an acceptable amount of scratch noise if any? If I'm doing an interview and people are not moving much it works great. I work for a Church and we are doing a lot of location filming with people talking and walking in various locations (i.e. beach, forest, downtown). Any ideas or advice would be appreciated! Scott Anderson Production Manager Crossroads Church I use undercovers with my COS-11's or B6's. The tram head is a bit larger so I'm not sure how well it will work with an undercover. With a button down shirt I'll place the sticky side off the undercover on #2, which is just under the top layer of the shirt when buttoned up (refer to pic). There's an official name for this part of the shirt but I forgot what it's called. I'll also use Butle (aka Joe's Sticky Stuff) in case I need to keep the shirt from rubbing against itself. On a female the best place is to place your mic on #1 (refer to pic). Hope this helps. If you're still having trouble then hire a sound mixer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 and what about number 2 ?? Forgot what that part of the shirt is called. Care to advise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDirckze Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 My advice with undercovers is use overcovers instead... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 My advice with undercovers is use overcovers instead... Ditto. they usually work best. You may have to trim them down a bit though when under a plain t-shirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 When cloth hits a mic, it makes noise. When skin hits a mic, it doesn't make noise.. So knowing these facts, where should the mic be 'attached' too. Answer.. not the skin. Do you see why? I try to look for natrual pockets between a shirt and skin. Breast bone, clevage, or sometimes collars. -Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sound Grab Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Forgot what that part of the shirt is called. Care to advise? I believe the word you're looking for is placket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shastapete Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Thanks for the visual aids! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Thanks for the visual aids! heh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 I believe the word you're looking for is placket. Thanks for that. Now I can keep up with the wardrobe lingo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Much good advice above, especially from Richard and Michael (and I use the same trick as Michael). I find there's three things that cause lav noise: 1) cloth rubbing against the microphone 2) skin rubbing against the microphone 3) the microphone picking up cloth rubbing against cloth (or with leather, silk, and other kinds of clothing) The key is to find a way to lock everything in position so nothing moves, or at least the microphone moves with it. I find that, though some people dislike Vampire Clips, I think those work well with the Tram TR50's (and the identical OST 801's). I get better results clipping the mic to the inside of the blouse or shirt, rather than nailing it to their flesh. I have had great luck when the actor or actress wears some kind of undershirt or bra, allowing me to fasten to that rather than the shirt itself. Having a small air pocket surrounding the mic on both sides helps a lot. Undercovers and Overcoats work better for me with much smaller mics, like the Countryman B6's. I have encountered situations with perspiration and heat where neither undercovers nor tape hold up well with fabric, particularly once you get over 90-95 degrees. Wind noise can also be a problem. And there are also situations where an overhead boom may sound best. And a good sound editor might be able to reduce minor clothing noise to the point where it's no longer a problem. There have been many, many, many past discussions on lav mic mounting, and it's agreed it's very much a black art on which you sometimes have to try several different things (based on experience). Fred Ginsberg's notes for Audio-Technica, "Rigging Lavaliers and Wireless Microphones," is a good introduction to the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Spaeth Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 I find that, though some people dislike Vampire Clips, I think those work well with the Tram TR50's (and the identical OST 801's). I get better results clipping the mic to the inside of the blouse or shirt, rather than nailing it to their flesh. I don't use tram style lavs often, but I'm interested in how exactly you rig the mic with the vampire clip. If the clip is on the mic, then the diaphragm points front, and the vampire needles to the back. So when you attach that to the inside of say a shirt, the diaphragm would point inward, meaning skin-wards, right? I guess that wouldn't deliver good results. But if you turned just the vampire clip around, facing the front, same as the diaphragm, it would block the diaphragm, so sound would be colored in a bad way. So is the only good way to use the vampire clip when you can apply it to some kind of undershirt, as you wrote, facing away from the skin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McL Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 I don't use tram style lavs often, but I'm interested in how exactly you rig the mic with the vampire clip. If the clip is on the mic, then the diaphragm points front, and the vampire needles to the back. So when you attach that to the inside of say a shirt, the diaphragm would point inward, meaning skin-wards, right? I guess that wouldn't deliver good results. But if you turned just the vampire clip around, facing the front, same as the diaphragm, it would block the diaphragm, so sound would be colored in a bad way. So is the only good way to use the vampire clip when you can apply it to some kind of undershirt, as you wrote, facing away from the skin? Nope. Omni-directional... Grill faces clip. Wind protection includes stuffing just the right bit of foam between clip and mic with a tweaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Spaeth Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Nope. Omni-directional... Grill faces clip. Wind protection includes stuffing just the right bit of foam between clip and mic with a tweaker. That's very useful to know. Makes things easier. I always thought the grill should be able to "breathe". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Tuzo Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 That's very useful to know. Makes things easier. I always thought the grill should be able to "breathe". Plus, If you want the capsule to "breathe" you could always flip the mic head so that it faces out from the clip. It'll work both ways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berniebeaudry Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 That's very useful to know. Makes things easier. I always thought the grill should be able to "breathe". I've found that if you face the grill into the clip the back side of the mic is less likely to make noise if it contacts skin or cloth. I use the vampire clips all the time but rarely mount directly to fabric. I mount it to transpore and then pad the place where the points protrude with more transpore or first aid tape and adhere that to the fabric or skin. That way the points won't protrude through the fabric, or scratch the skin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheisticmystic Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 photo redacted I'm not onboard with this visual aid brother. It's already an uphill battle sometimes trying to convince people that hiding lavs is nothing more than a logistical struggle. Having to also combat this tired "assumption" that there are secret hetero thrills every time a male sound peep hides a lav on a female is just freaking exhausting. I don't have the stamina to combat the entire culture brother, I need your help. Humbly and respectfully, Steven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 +1 Steve! How many times have you heard "Now I see why you chose this job!" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 " It's already an uphill battle " a lot of your talent read this forum ?? the information would still be correct, even if the model in the picture were changed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheisticmystic Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 " It's already an uphill battle " a lot of your talent read this forum ?? the information would still be correct, even if the model in the picture were changed... 1-No Senator, they don't, but we perpetuate the attitude when we wink and snicker. 2-That's EXACTLY my point Bossman! +1 Steve! How many times have you heard "Now I see why you chose this job!" ? And from my own crew-mates at times Olle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 OK, I'll refrain from snickering... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Steven, I try not to take myself so seriously all the time. The pic is a valid visual aid for the two points I was trying to make. I've heard those comments before but usually blow them off and do my job. Most female professionals already know the drill. It's usually the amateurs on crappy indy gigs that make the comments. In any case, 90% of the time I let the females wire themselves so I don't really put myself in a comprising position to begin with. The other 10% of the times I'm usually told to "do what I gotta do". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheisticmystic Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I try not to take myself so seriously all the time. Like I said brother Mike, humbly and respectfully. Best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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