664 vs. Nomad Lite

[Matt Martin]

Interesting, Glenn. Will it still be possible to have the limiter activated on a post fade (mix) track, while deactivated on the ISOs?

You can do this in the limiter enables page in the "ENG Setup Menu". Just enable/disable Card Track limiters individually. So enable the limiter on Card Track 1 for your mix and leave the rest unchecked.

[glenn]

Of course barely hitting limiters or avoiding them will sound very good. But I believe the difference Glenn is talking about here is a signal hitting a limiter hard to avoid clipping versus that SAME signal not having to hit a limiter hard or at all because Neverclip can handle it on it's own.

Comparing apples to apples (to MY ear) Neverclip sounds leaps and bounds better to that same level signal going through a limiter.

+1 (Thanks Matt)

Yes all of the soft knee compressors are individually enabled.

Glenn

[MT Groove]

Glenn, any plans on incorporating any of these new features into the Fusion?

[callou]

Glenn,

is the compressors side chaininig thing already implemented or wil it be in a software update?

[Jack Norflus]

Glenn,

is the compressors side chaininig thing already implemented or wil it be in a software update?

that should be available in 4.0

[callou]

ok ..thanks Jack

[Steve Foy]

"Comparing apples to apples (to MY ear) Neverclip sounds leaps and bounds better to that same level signal going through a limiter."

Then Matt, you are completely missing my point !!!

[Mark Orusa]

The big news we will be talking about next week is that we are about to release Nomad software that records the full 137dB dynamic range Neverclip audio to ISO tracks so post can better take advantage of the function. ...

Glenn

Mmm, it just keeps getting better! Thank you Zaxcom.

"Comparing apples to apples (to MY ear) Neverclip sounds leaps and bounds better to that same level signal going through a limiter."

Then Matt, you are completely missing my point !!!

I think we get your point. Matt is just saying that an un-limited signal sounds better than a limited signal.

Mark O.

[Steve Foy]

Then Mark, you too are completely missing my point !!!

[Wyatt Tuzo]

I dunno. I RARELY hit my input limiters. Regardless... Not having input limiters does, still, allow the nomad to clip its ISO's, right?

I see that Glenn mentioned a way around this in a recent post.

Since the descriptions we've been given of neverclip still have about as many details as the Romney/Ryan budget plan, I'm gonna take a stab here.

Please... correct me if I'm wrong. I think there are many out there who would like to know the details of how this all works.

So my guess is that neverclip is a simple 2-stage ADC into a 32 bit floating software architecture that dynamically truncates the file to 24 bit based on the incoming signal voltages. The issue of preamp and circuit noise floor dynamically shifting still exists. So if the promise is to preserve this "dynamic range" for post to have the ability to pull from, you are planning to just save files as 32b float, no?

I'll admit, I think zax gear DOES handle transients well... I just know better than to trust the figures that are being thrown out.

PS: 144dB is the THEORETICAL range of 24 bits. Real life performance will be limited by dynamic range of components, circuit design, and their noise floors... As well as distortion due to circuit headroom limitations and thermal dissipation.

[glenn]

"Not having input limiters does, still, allow the nomad to clip its ISO's, right?

No it does not. With our next version of Nomad software the ISO's will not clip. No compressors or limiters of any kind are needed. The 137dB input dynamic range is recorded and is available to post without any distortion typical of analog mixers.

"So my guess is that neverclip is a simple 2-stage ADC into a 32 bit floating software architecture that dynamically truncates the file to 24 bit based on the incoming signal voltages. The issue of preamp and circuit noise floor dynamically shifting still exists. So if the promise is to preserve this "dynamic range" for post to have the ability to pull from, you are planning to just save files as 32b float, no?"

No. Neverclip uses 2 A-D converters to generate a real 137dB dynamic range output that can be mixed inside the nomad and can now be recorded. The result is the same as using a single converter that would have a theoretical dynamic range of 137dB. The files are saved as standard 24 bit .wav files. There is no need to use 32b floating files as 24 bit files are 100% compatible with everything and can fit the 137dB dynamic range.

" Real life performance will be limited by dynamic range of components, circuit design, and their noise floors... As well as distortion due to circuit headroom limitations and thermal dissipation."

This would be true in an analog mixing system. The Nomad is a 100% digital mixing system so none of the limitations you talk about apply. Once the audio is converted to digital in Nomad the 137dB signal can not degrade and is captured intact and is recorded for post. I am sure this type of recording will find many fans in the sound effects and music recording areas as well.

Glenn

[Armin Siegwarth]

664 has AES in and outputs. Nomad Lite does not, but 10 and 12 do (for more money of course).

Nomad Lite should have AES outs as from Zaxcom comparison chart.

One more thing: I have no reliable info found on M/S stereo headphone matrix in nomad which I saw in an 664 video. there is somewhere something on zaxcom website but no clear statement. Just M/S decode in the chart.

Not sure if 664 can do M/S decode though.

664 has one button PFL access - seems quicker to me than nomad? (not having used both). more important to me than per channel gain/pan is to be able to quickly monitor different sources.

And about SQN: Yes these limiters are GREAT. Much better than 552 or 788 for example.

[glenn]

You can decode MS now by sending the audio to a recorded track and monitoring it. A more direct method is on the way.

The Nomad PFL is very easy to use. Press the PFL button and the last PFL channel is monitored in PFL mode.

Press any of the buttons by the faders to select a new PFL channel. The last PFL channel is automatically deselected. Holding the buttons by the faders for about .5 second will mix the PFL selections.

Glenn

[John Blankenship]

No offense but I don't think you understand what the neverclip does..

...

Never clip reduces transient peaks as the level reaches 0 dBFS.Regular AD converters require a lot head room in their signal path to handle such peaks.

Neumann/sennheiser use similar technology in their digital microphones.

...

So, you're saying that NeverClip includes a peak limiter? That's what the description, "reduces transient peaks as the level reaches 0 dBFS" indicates.

I question whether that's correct.

[glenn]

It is not correct. Neverclip extends the dynamic range of an input so that it can Never clip. And now that extended dynamic range will be available in ISO files sent to post.

Glenn

[karl191]

How is post supposed to deal with 137dB of dynamic ? By compressing the signal back to something useable ? Neverclip adds 20dB of headroom. So what does your -20dBfs reference become ? -40dBFS ? This is just crazy !

Talking about 137dB of dynamic is pretty foolish. If the Analog/digital circuitry of the Nomad would have indeed 20dB less noise level than all other competitors then you could speak about 137dB of dynamic but this not possible with today's preamps and AD converter technology.

Nomad gets rid of the additionnal 20dB of headroom to feed the ouptut DAs and card tracks by compressing the signal. Post will also need to get rid of these 20dB (and probably increasing the noise level at the same time). So why all the hassle ! Just put a decent analog limiter in your machines and stop bragging about your "137dBs of dynamic" which make no sense. Marketing BS I suspect. What frightens me the most is that all this technical non sense doesn't seem to bother many sound fellows here.

[sdog]

How is post supposed to deal with 137dB of dynamic ?

I'll be the first to admit that I don't understand how Never-clip can record a "true, clean, uncompressed" version of a 137dB performance with today's pre-amp/AD technology. So, like others I'm a bit skeptical. I certainly don't know enough to guess at how accurately or effectively a Never-clip recording represents a 137dB performance.

However... If indeed the scheme does record a "true, clean, uncompressed" representation of 137dB performance, I would have to say that 137dB is handy precisely BECAUSE post can deal with it. Of course no playback system is going to do much useful with that much range. Our ears don't even like that much range. So... post will HAVE to do something with it. But...

"Real life" exceeds 137dB all the time. If indeed it can be captured so that the recording engineer doesn't have to decide instantaneously whether to "drive the whispers down into the noise" or "crush the peaks", the post engineer is in a much better position to decide where and how he's going to adjust levels to bring the performance to listenable, outputable (is that a word?) levels.

My life as a recording engineer can be encapsulated as follows: "Oh damn. I wasn't expecting him to whisper quite that quietly and scream quite that loudly, all quite so suddenly."

My life as a post engineer can be encapsulated as follows, "Ah. Here's the file I have. Here's problems it has. Here's what I need to create a beautiful output. Well crud. The first half of the performance is buried in noise and that second half has all it's peaks crushed. Hmmm."

This is in no way an opinion on "Never-Clip vs. Analog limiter" - just one post engineer's fantasy about files with no noise (or more accurately - no perceivable noise added) and no distortion (whether clipping, compression, or limiting). If your post engineer doesn't know what to do with quiet, high dynamic, distortion free files, I would argue that you should fire him and hire me instead! I'd love to have you send me those files! ;-)

[glenn]

"How is post supposed to deal with 137dB of dynamic ? By compressing the signal back to something useable ?"

No, it can be mixed directly just as any other file with no compression or limiter distortion.

"Neverclip adds 20dB of headroom. So what does your -20dBfs reference become ? -40dBFS ? "

Yes the Neverclip files can have references of -26dBFS, -32dBFS, -38dBFS and -44dBFS.

"Talking about 137dB of dynamic is pretty foolish. If the Analog/digital circuitry of the Nomad would have indeed 20dB less noise level than all other competitors then you could speak about 137dB of dynamic but this not possible with today's preamps and AD converter technology."

Neverclip is a patent pending process utilizing 2 seperate A-D converters per channel to generate the 137dB of dynamic range. This has been in service for the last year. Any Nomad user can tell you that you can exceed the full scale input by 20dB with no input compressor engaged. Just reduce the fader to attenuate the signal for recording and output. (Now we will record the ISOs directly without attenuation at full 137dB dynamic range so post can have what they need to do their job.)

"Nomad gets rid of the additional 20dB of headroom to feed the ouptut DAs and card tracks by compressing the signal."

No longer the case for our recorded ISO tracks. As previously discussed there are selectable levels including off.

"Post will also need to get rid of these 20dB (and probably increasing the noise level at the same time). So why all the hassle !"

This is not correct. All post will do is use the ISOs in the remix. If a track is over 0dBFS on the Nomad input meter it will be peaking some where around -20dbFS in post. All will seem very normal except there will be none of the typical analog limiter distortion that would accompany this type of problem. No noise is added in post as a result of this process. The process actually eliminates noise in the file and replaces it with actual recorded audio.

"Just put a decent analog limiter in your machines and stop bragging about your "137dBs of dynamic" which make no sense."

I am sorry that I can not accept that anyone would want limiter distortion over a system that eliminates it with no downside. We do of course provide a Soft knee compressor with look ahead on each input and output. (Way better than "decent") We are not bragging about our dynamic range. We are explaining how it is used to eliminate a problem that has existed since the first analog mixers were invented and now has been eliminated with a new feature of our Nomad recorder.

Bragging is for trade shows and company web sites. ;-)

Glenn

[soundslikejustin]

"How is post supposed to deal with 137dB of dynamic ? By compressing the signal back to something useable ?"

No, it can be mixed directly just as any other file with no compression or limiter distortion.

"Neverclip adds 20dB of headroom. So what does your -20dBfs reference become ? -40dBFS ? "

Yes the Neverclip files can have references of -26dBFS, -32dBFS, -38dBFS and -44dBFS.

"Talking about 137dB of dynamic is pretty foolish. If the Analog/digital circuitry of the Nomad would have indeed 20dB less noise level than all other competitors then you could speak about 137dB of dynamic but this not possible with today's preamps and AD converter technology."

Neverclip is a patent pending process utilizing 2 seperate A-D converters per channel to generate the 137dB of dynamic range. This has been in service for the last year. Any Nomad user can tell you that you can exceed the full scale input by 20dB with no input compressor engaged. Just reduce the fader to attenuate the signal for recording and output. (Now we will record the ISOs directly without attenuation at full 137dB dynamic range so post can have what they need to do their job.)

"Nomad gets rid of the additional 20dB of headroom to feed the ouptut DAs and card tracks by compressing the signal."

No longer the case for our recorded ISO tracks. As previously discussed there are selectable levels including off.

"Post will also need to get rid of these 20dB (and probably increasing the noise level at the same time). So why all the hassle !"

This is not correct. All post will do is use the ISOs in the remix. If a track is over 0dBFS on the Nomad input meter it will be peaking some where around -20dbFS in post. All will seem very normal except there will be none of the typical analog limiter distortion that would accompany this type of problem. No noise is added in post as a result of this process. The process actually eliminates noise in the file and replaces it with actual recorded audio.

"Just put a decent analog limiter in your machines and stop bragging about your "137dBs of dynamic" which make no sense."

I am sorry that I can not accept that anyone would want limiter distortion over a system that eliminates it with no downside. We do of course provide a Soft knee compressor with look ahead on each input and output. (Way better than "decent") We are not bragging about our dynamic range. We are explaining how it is used to eliminate a problem that has existed since the first analog mixers were invented and now has been eliminated with a new feature of our Nomad recorder.

Bragging is for trade shows and company web sites.

Glenn

So to utilise a 'NeverClip ISO', post will have to add ~20dB gain to the majority of the files as Dialogue will now sit around -40dB... I really only see this as necessary for those occasions of dialogue and loud peaks immediately after (that you can't adjust for)...though I might be missing something.

[glenn]

So to utilise a 'NeverClip ISO', post will have to add ~20dB gain to the majority of the files as Dialogue will now sit around -40dB... I really only see this as necessary for those occasions of dialogue and loud peaks immediately after (that you can't adjust for)...though I might be missing something.

Yes, post will add gain to the ISO tracks in most cases. This of course is a simple thing to so in a DAW. It might be agreed with post that a smaller amount of additional headroom might be best. For example maybe -32dBFS would be the standard for a production.

Glenn

[Jeff Wexler]

So to utilise a 'NeverClip ISO', post will have to add ~20dB gain to the majority of the files as Dialogue will now sit around -40dB... I really only see this as necessary for those occasions of dialogue and loud peaks immediately after (that you can't adjust for)...though I might be missing something.

I believe that what Zaxcom is proposing, preserving on an iso track the full dynamic range that Neverclip can provide and making this available to post, is not something that will be needed all the time. There are recording jobs, reasonable and predictable by their very nature, that can be easily serviced with common, simple gain setups with virtually no gain riding necessary, no limiters, compressors, etc. There may be less and less of these sorts of jobs, I am imagining, after reading the number of accounts of the work people are having to do these days (and not just the wacky "reality" type jobs). This is where Neverclip and the addition of an iso track that accommodates the full 137 db dynamic range will really shine.

[Wandering Ear]

Glenn,

I think this is brilliant. I'm excited that i'll be able to set a good level for whispering so the quiet sections aren't noisy,but stil be able to maintain the original dynamics without heavilly compressing loud sections.

Will the different reference levels you mentioned be noted somewhere so we can know what relative level the file is? Also, is that reference level set automatically?

K

Wandering Ear

[soundslikejustin]

I believe that what Zaxcom is proposing, preserving on an iso track the full dynamic range that Neverclip can provide and making this available to post, is not something that will be needed all the time. There are recording jobs, reasonable and predictable by their very nature, that can be easily serviced with common, simple gain setups with virtually no gain riding necessary, no limiters, compressors, etc. There may be less and less of these sorts of jobs, I am imagining, after reading the number of accounts of the work people are having to do these days (and not just the wacky "reality" type jobs). This is where Neverclip and the addition of an iso track that accommodates the full 137 db dynamic range will really shine.

Definitely. Desperate times call for 'NeverClipISO', structure calls for the way we're used to doing things. It's a good idea - another tool for us to utilise as necessary.

[Zack]

Excuse me if I missed it, but will neverclip be an on/off option for iso's?

[Olle Sjostrom]

Omg post has to gain tracks!?

Has post ever not had to add gain to tracks? It's sop in my book at least. Sound mixers record at a lower level than necessary just to be sure not to distort. With neverclip everything (to me) seems normal. Wi don't get all the fuss at all. Except maybe that I would agree that the dynamic range has been achieved before, but still, in the digital domain and on the recorded tracks this is pretty cool.