Wyatt Tuzo Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 "Not having input limiters does, still, allow the nomad to clip its ISO's, right? No it does not. With our next version of Nomad software the ISO's will not clip. No compressors or limiters of any kind are needed. The 137dB input dynamic range is recorded and is available to post without any distortion typical of analog mixers. So you are actually saying that- yes it does, but it won't. " Real life performance will be limited by dynamic range of components, circuit design, and their noise floors... As well as distortion due to circuit headroom limitations and thermal dissipation." This would be true in an analog mixing system. The Nomad is a 100% digital mixing system so none of the limitations you talk about apply. Once the audio is converted to digital in Nomad the 137dB signal can not degrade and is captured intact and is recorded for post. I am sure this type of recording will find many fans in the sound effects and music recording areas as well. Glenn Is this in referring to feeding the Nomad from a digital source? If so, then I understand your argument. If not, then you still have the above mentioned performance limitations of your preamps and AD stages. I would argue that some still DO apply. Plus, even if you are feeding from a digital source, you are then relying on each individual piece of outboard gear to handle these operations (often with tighter restrictions on performance based on size and power availability/management) I understand that none of this technical hoo-ha really means a damn over the course of a normal work day, and that if something gets the job done, and gets the job done well, then it serves us. I just want to make sure that some reading this board have the opportunity of genuine information vs. marketing jargon on which to make their choices. I have no horse in this race. I use gear by all of these companies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 When a neverclip file is written to an ISO track it will not clip as the ISO track can have op to 144 dB of headroom. When talking about a neverclip input I am always refering to an analog source as the feature is a method of converting a single audio input to a digital representation with dynamic range of 137 dB. The 137 dB number comes from the performance of the microphone preamp and the A-D converters that we use. Because all the processing past the Neverclip input stage is digital there is no degridation of the audio in the mixing process. With neverclip technology the 137dB number is easy for us to achive. We have had talks with industry leaders in post production about the new capability that Neverclip files give them to better mix and recover audio that is not ideal in mixed tracks. The response so far has been overwelming. It is our hope that Neverclip files become common place and are used on every production. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Denton Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 I'm about to buy a new mixer/recorder to step up from my 552 and I've been tossing up between a Nomad and a 664. I did a job on Friday that needed multi-tracking that my 552 couldn't achieve. Instead of hiring a 744T like I normally would I decided that I would hire a Nomad 4 and put it through it's paces on an actual job and see what it could do and how I liked it. Before the job I had to get some things from a shop that happens to be my local Sound Devices dealer and while I had the Nomad with me I decided to bring it in and compare the machines directly. After comparing them physically and then working with the Nomad there is absolutely no doubt in my mind now that I want a 664 rather than a Nomad. My first impression was the finish on the 664 was much nicer. The sharp edges of the top and bottom panels of the Nomad, the stuck-on plastic front panel and the less tactile fader knobs all did not appeal to me after having used the 552 with smooth rounded edges of the body, engraved metal front face and faders with the silver knobs on the faders that help when controlling numerous faders with one hand. There were a number of things about the finish of the Nomad that really didn't impress me such as the plastic nut around the 1/4" headphone socket that didn't match the other metal TA5 socket nuts, the way the CF cards fit in "upside down", the unsealed rims of the XLR output jacks and the removable primary card/battery compartment door that's not on a hinge. Compare that to the 664 CF/SD card door which is hinged and closes with firm magnet, it just feels so much better. On a functional level as well I much prefered the 664. Booting up the Nomad and seeing all the DOS-like script wasn't very impressive, but maybe its because I've always been a Mac user and I like the way they don't show the script while they boot up compared to a PC. Despite having a formatted CF mirror card in the slot and having the tracks armed for recording to the mirror card, the files did not record to the mirror card. Apparently this was because I hadn't selected the folder to mirror in another menu. So I had to go through the process of converting the primary card MARF files to WAV. Admittedly this was an operator error in missing the part of the manual where it said you have to select the folder to mirror, but my point is it is not an intuitive process. You just kind of expect the mirror card record everything the primary card records without mucking around with folders. On the Nomad the "record" and "stop recording" tones in the headphones were a harsh high pitched beep compared to the mellow 440Hz and 220Hz tones in my 552. I wished there was a "favourite" headphone monitor mode or a "back" button when flipping through headphone monitor modes on the Nomad. If I changed monitor modes to quickly listen to one of my record channels I would have to flip through all monitor modes to get back to where I started. I love the 788T style of monitor modes where you can press a button to flip directly back to your favourite mode or the 664 style with its back/forward monitor toggle switch. Surprisingly I didn't find the lack of hardware pan controls on the Nomad a big deal as I had everything ISO'd anyway, but if I was mixing to camera ENG style I think it would've like to be able to change pans quickly without going through menus. I actually quite liked the autotrim too as I could adjust trims really quickly by touching each fader with my left hand and just leaving my right hand on the one knob. I really wish there were hardware single button PFL switches though. This combined with the headphone monitoring limitations described earlier made monitoring how I like to a little laborious. I do like the idea of the auto mixer but to my knowledge it won't be available on the Nomad Lite which would be the model I would purchase. The size and weight of the Nomad compared to the 664 is one thing that really was swaying me that way because I do a lot of over-the-shoulder work. The 664 is a big machine but after holding the demo model in the shop its not too big to turn me off it. Also I love the concept of Zaxnet for IFB and changing TX gains but I have Lectro wireless so I wouldn't get much benefit from it unless I bought Zaxcom wireless. So that's my impressions of the Nomad compared to the 664. I apologise if I seem to be "Nomad-bashing", that's not my intention. I think it is an amazingly versatile piece of equipment and a very powerful recorder. Up until Friday I was very close to buying one. But for the reasons listed above I really think the 664 is much more suited to what I want. And the beautiful finish of the 664 (and all Sound Devices gear) is hard to go past. Ed Denton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Orusa Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Sound Devices and Zaxcom are different companies with different methods of operation. I like both companies and the competition through thoughtful product design is only helping to drive the development of new and better products. You can easily move forward and backwards through Nomad's headphone presets by pressing or pressing and holding for 1.5 seconds the headphone volume knob. The manual probably doesn't mention this, which is one of the shortcomings of Zaxcom. One great benefit of Zaxcom products is how they listen to their customers and respond quickly to feature requests. Nomad firmware V4.0 has just introduced a number of great features and changes. And like you said, Zaxnet and all of it's features are great and the reason I switched from Sound Devices and Lectro to all Zaxcom. Sound Devices make very solid and reliable equipment that will fill the bill for many customers for years to come. Choosing gear from either company is a good choice. Mark O. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 You can easily move forward and backwards through Nomad's headphone presets by pressing or pressing and holding for 1.5 seconds the headphone volume knob. The manual probably doesn't mention this, which is one of the shortcomings of Zaxcom. Mark O. +1, this is something that I'm actually really liking about N12. Both machines have a fast and simple way of dealing with HP monitoring and customization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Visser Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 When I take a look at my machine, and feel a little bit of jealousy for all the high tech things that it can't do, I take one look at the monitoring section, and it makes me excited again to know that there are companies providing equipment that is simple to use, and maintains a mantra of mechanical excellence, especially in this day and age of whiz bang technology, touchscreens, menus, etc... (now if they would just break down and open up the mixing capabilities of the machine as I had hoped they would...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Pender Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 I have similar view to Ed in the hardware side of things and love the solid nature of SD gear, it feels like they could go through anything. I was a little concerned with the build style of the nomad when I used it for the first time but so far so good for reliability, it does feel a little flimsy though. Ed hired my Nomad so I may be biased...but I have grown to love the nomad and it's quirks. It has a longer learning curve then SD gear and I'm still finding little things that I didn't know about almost one year on from purchase. It took a few warming in days for me to feel comfortable with the menu system after coming from SD. One thing that did annoy me was that the advertised features were not available when it was released and some still aren't, I guess thats what you put up with to stay ahead of the game. Also it wasn't very clear that the 4 was only a 6 input recorder not 10 although with the new LITE software that will change. The issue with mirror card folder has now been fixed along with others niggles, I updated to 4.0 after I picked it up from Ed. The monitors are easy to go back and forth, I guess that comes down to knowing the machine though. I may check out the 664 but I think I'm stuck on zaxcom with the abilities to upgrade, integrate zaxcom wireless, ERX, neverclip, automix in the future, Weight/size, Zaxnet abilities, I like the sound better too... I'm certainly glad that I held out a few extra months and didn't buy a 744t last year. If I didn't own a Nomad my decision may be a little more difficult. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arnold Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Sound Devices and Zaxcom are different companies with different methods of operation. I like both companies and the competition through thoughtful product design is only helping to drive the development of new and better products. You can easily move forward and backwards through Nomad's headphone presets by pressing or pressing and holding for 1.5 seconds the headphone volume knob. The manual probably doesn't mention this, which is one of the shortcomings of Zaxcom. One great benefit of Zaxcom products is how they listen to their customers and respond quickly to feature requests. Nomad firmware V4.0 has just introduced a number of great features and changes. And like you said, Zaxnet and all of it's features are great and the reason I switched from Sound Devices and Lectro to all Zaxcom. Sound Devices make very solid and reliable equipment that will fill the bill for many customers for years to come. Choosing gear from either company is a good choice. Mark O. I hadn't clued into this, but this still means that flipping between headphone presets is a circular activity. I would like to see the ability to set up and name presets, but not enable them unless needed. A single on/off check box in the HP routing page would be ideal. This would mean that if I only want L and R mix tracks to monitor but still want to quickly listen to card tracks or a preset camera return I don't have to have scroll through 'parked' monitor modes or go back and check a million boxes. That way it would be possible to set up all kinds of monitor modes in advance, but only use them when and as needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 I hadn't clued into this, but this still means that flipping between headphone presets is a circular activity. I would like to see the ability to set up and name presets, but not enable them unless needed. A single on/off check box in the HP routing page would be ideal. This would mean that if I only want L and R mix tracks to monitor but still want to quickly listen to card tracks or a preset camera return I don't have to have scroll through 'parked' monitor modes or go back and check a million boxes. That way it would be possible to set up all kinds of monitor modes in advance, but only use them when and as needed. I love this idea. We will do it. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 When I take a look at my machine, and feel a little bit of jealousy for all the high tech things that it can't do, I take one look at the monitoring section, and it makes me excited again to know that there are companies providing equipment that is simple to use, and maintains a mantra of mechanical excellence, especially in this day and age of whiz bang technology, touchscreens, menus, etc... (now if they would just break down and open up the mixing capabilities of the machine as I had hoped they would...) +1 on the nagra monitor selector. very very nice. And i think unlikely to be seen on another machine (ever?) because given the choice between that and the other features (you say you'd like), the other features will probably get the sales figures. Of course it doesn't have to be an either or situation but it would seem to be so thus far as the tendency is for less buttons, knobs and switches as opposed to more (because the relative cost of including those things is increasing in relation to the cost programable functions?) . dan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTA Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 I was able to play with both machines at AES and I still feel pretty much the same as before. 664 feels like it is more solidly built, neatly designed, and the quality is top notch. It seems to be more of a simple machine compared to the Nomad as far as features and future possibilities. I do like the screen and the UI of the 664 better as I feel it is of higher quality, resolution, and a bit easier to navigate. The Nomad is rich with features, especially when you take into account Zaxnet. The weight and size are an obvious plus. One of the big things in favor of Nomad is that it comes with 10 analog inputs as is. No need for an additional larger attachment like the CL-6. I wasn't to keen on having to add a CL-6 if I need 7 - 8 input channels, it feels like a waste of 4 - 5 faders. Both are awesome machines though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arnold Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 I love this idea. We will do it. Glenn Crikey! You can't say fairer than that! I charge a very reasonable patent percentage too... ; ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 THE REAL **DECISION 2012**!! seriously though, go vote (educated) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Futterman Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 Love it. Such a tough decision for people who don't already own one or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Hirtenstein Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 i just voted. count me as a new nomad owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanross Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Loving my Nomad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arnold Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 The 664 looks a lot smaller there than in other pictures. It still butts right up to the end of the bag though - do the connectors sit out a long way into the waterproof bit? Very happy to have retired my Pegz bag. Weighs a ton on its own with nothing in, even if it is more practical than the 614. The Nomad - she is so light! How does the 664 stack up next to the Nomad for general use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Mills Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Not sure if I understand this.. but maybe G Sanders can tell me.. is Neverclip exclusively a hardware configuration onthe Nomad boxes, or is it firmware that a Deva or Fusion can load in an update? I own a Fusion, and some SD gear.. like them both.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 The 664 looks a lot smaller there than in other pictures. It still butts right up to the end of the bag though - do the connectors sit out a long way into the waterproof bit? Very happy to have retired my Pegz bag. Weighs a ton on its own with nothing in, even if it is more practical than the 614. The Nomad - she is so light! How does the 664 stack up next to the Nomad for general use? The 664's are just being released so there aren't enough out on the job yet for a good comparison. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 The 664 looks a lot smaller there than in other pictures. It still butts right up to the end of the bag though - do the connectors sit out a long way into the waterproof bit? yeah, same as the 552 and 442. I guess the only difference being that the 664 is bigger than the other mixers. There is a lightweight Petrol bag coming that's based on the PS614, but wider to accommodate the 664. I'm sure Petrol will have it out ASAP, especially now that the 664s are starting to ship to users. Remains to be seen if the new Petrol bag makes it easy to get to the bottom connectors on the 664. The 614 is 0 help getting to the bottom of the Nomad. That is a place where the PortaBrace bag wins hands down. The fact that the new Petrol bag is purpose built for the 664, it might be better. The 614 is a universal lightweight bag that fits the Nomad, 788, 552, SQN etc etc. If you are a picky bag person, it might be worth trying the options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 As for the Petrol 664 bag, my sources tell me that it's still in design phase, and probably won't see it till Feb/March of 2013. Perhaps a Petrol rep here on JW (if there is one) can chime in on this to verify? As for N12 to 664 usage, I had a good few weeks running some big reality shoots (having to use the vFader) and some film work. Was a good break-in test for me with Nomad. The next few weeks I'm going to be on the 664 only and see how things compare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arnold Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 yeah, same as the 552 and 442. I guess the only difference being that the 664 is bigger than the other mixers. There is a lightweight Petrol bag coming that's based on the PS614, but wider to accommodate the 664. I'm sure Petrol will have it out ASAP, especially now that the 664s are starting to ship to users. Remains to be seen if the new Petrol bag makes it easy to get to the bottom connectors on the 664. The 614 is 0 help getting to the bottom of the Nomad. That is a place where the PortaBrace bag wins hands down. The fact that the new Petrol bag is purpose built for the 664, it might be better. The 614 is a universal lightweight bag that fits the Nomad, 788, 552, SQN etc etc. If you are a picky bag person, it might be worth trying the options. Yeah, it's a total pain to get to the inputs when using the 614. Hopefully Petrol might design a Nomad bag, but I'm not holding my breath. You can't get an SQN 5 into a 614 though! It's too long and has no corner spigots for straps. As for the Petrol 664 bag, my sources tell me that it's still in design phase, and probably won't see it till Feb/March of 2013. Perhaps a Petrol rep here on JW (if there is one) can chime in on this to verify? As for N12 to 664 usage, I had a good few weeks running some big reality shoots (having to use the vFader) and some film work. Was a good break-in test for me with Nomad. The next few weeks I'm going to be on the 664 only and see how things compare. Cool. Be curious to see how they shape up vs each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Spaeth Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Kortwich offers a nice Nomad custom bag that opens up in the middle so its very quick and easy to get to the inputs. Plus the quality is top notch. Search for Nomad bag on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Not sure if I understand this.. but maybe G Sanders can tell me.. is Neverclip exclusively a hardware configurations onthe Nomad boxes, or is it firmware that a Deva or Fusion can load in an update? I own a Fusion, and some SD gear.. like them both.. Its both hardware and software. And sorry it can't be implemented into fusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Yeah, it's a total pain to get to the inputs when using the 614. Hopefully Petrol might design a Nomad bag, but I'm not holding my breath. You can't get an SQN 5 into a 614 though! It's too long and has no corner spigots for straps. Cool. Be curious to see how they shape up vs each other. So far with 664 I'm surprised it's not possible to route slate or tone to any of the ISO channels. Nomad it's now possible to route tone to all tracks/outputs, and slate to all outputs but only tracks 1-4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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