ASH Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I hope you can help me. In two days I shall begin to picture a new film, and I have questions concerning to this. Here the place where I shall do it, the place sign on the picture. The place will make very echo noise, thats why I want to know in which way to work, how can I picture for recieving the best result of sound? what type of mic to use? I have this type of mic. Shure SM89, Sennheiser MKH70 P48, recorder Tascam HD P2. I hope you will give me comprehensive answer. each advise which will you give me, will help me for my work. Best regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Concrete walls and floors, hard ceilings, no drapes, no carpets... that's gonna sound bad no matter what. I believe there was a past discussion where somebody here had to shoot by a swimming pool, and their bigger problem was turning off the pool pump, stop any water trickling in the drains, and eliminating that kind of unnecessary background sound. If the boom mic is kept very close, you can minimize the reverb to some degree. But the audience will buy some degree of reverb because it's an indoor pool -- this is the way it sounds. It's never going to sound 100% clean. I don't think a shotgun will be an ideal choice for a room this reverby, but that's only my opinion; I think a hypercardioid like an MKH40 or MKH50 (or the Schoeps CMC641) would be a better choice. There's always locations that are so "sound hostile," all you can do is use ADR and re-record the dialogue later. At the worst, you can do a good guide track. If it's a short scene, maybe you can record some wild lines under more controlled conditions. But I think a room like this is what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Mega Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Parev Arsen Sorry I haven't replied to your PM to me but I'll reply here instead. What Mark says is true. That space won't do anyone any favors. If you can get a hold of a hypercardiod mic, that would be your best bet. A Schoeps MK41 preferably. The audience will expect to hear some echo/reverb since they can see its an indoor pool. Good luck Let us know how you go. Best Peer Mega Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlimp Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Definitely get your hands on a hyper - borrow/rent one of the more expensive ones or buy a cheap Oktava MK012. Make sure to get wild takes. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 If the budget won't stretch to a Schoeps, a Sanken CS3e will do better than most mics to get clean dialogue in that kind of environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Waelder Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Have a few furniture pads on hand. Whenever circumstances permit, fold a pad in half or quarters and drop it at the feet of the person speaking. Assuming you are booming from above with a directional microphone, the mike will then be aimed directly into a thick pad. The pool area is too big to tame with modest efforts but pads right at a speaker's feet are reasonably effective. Much of the reverberant noise actually enters the microphone from the front after bouncing off walls and the floor. The pad can help minimize that. The director can also help tame reverberations. A little echo is not too bad but the problem becomes acute when the actors speak continuously and produce overlapping reverberations. Having each performer pause just a moment before replying can keep the echos from overlapping and building. Usually only a second or two of pause is sufficient to keep the echo from building. (This has the advantage of costing nothing and requiring no special rigging.) If you have the resources, filling the ceiling area with hundreds of helium balloons can help tame an echo. Maybe you could just plant the idea with the Director of Photography that using helium-filled lighting balloons would be a good lighting plan. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 " I have this type of mic. Shure SM89, Sennheiser MKH70 P48, recorder Tascam HD P2. " the wrong mic's for this situation, and the recorder doesn't matter... tough room -- the one you are shooting in! I see some unreasonable expectations on the part of the movie-maker being involved here, and the laws of physics will prevail. Hyper, short shotguns, or even cardioid mic is typically first choice, and shooting style will have a huge effect on the results that will be possible; best to have tight shots with tight micing, and wild lines mic'd tight for wider shots. replacing lines later is not your failure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Martin Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I shot in a similar sized pool before. As Marc said, the pool pump and other machines can actually the worse part. The audience will expect/forgive some large pool reverb, but will not be so happy about machine noise or bubbling. Perhaps ask ahead of time if there will be a lifeguard, maintenance person, or other person on duty that will know of to turn things off and on. If not, arranging ahead of time for someone to be present or at least available by phone can save a lot of last minute running around and flipping of random switches. +1 for Furni Pads/sound blankets directly under the mic whenever possible. Also, possibly some blankets hanging on C-stands in the direction the talent is speaking could help (obviously has to be out of frame). If G&E uses black flags/floppies/frames, etc... for controlling their light, that is a plus too. These things combined should help tame the FIRST sets reflections your mic will be hearing.... as far as the other million reflections.... it is what it is.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindrop Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Don't forget Zynaptiq Unveil, anyone here happily used it in TV / Film post to help reduce excess reverb? http://www.zynaptiq.com/unveil/ Though controlling reverb at source is a good idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 In the close-up, asking the grips to place a 4'x4' flag (black or white depending on what the DP wants) horizontally just above the actor and your mic will help too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crussell Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I've had mixed results with Unveil, I wouldn't rely on it. It can make things better in some circumstances but it's far from perfect. Better to get it right on location whenever possible. Sound blankets, Hyper cardioid mics, maybe even a cardioid lav if you can make it work. (I carry an mke104 in my kit just in case) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Rose Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Based on your original selection of mics and recorders, you're probably not an experienced sound pro. So it won't hurt to remind you: Don't use automatic volume control, and don't record so hot the limiters are activated! Both of those will make the echo sound worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I believe in response to some of the OP's other posts I have recommended Jay Rose's books at www.dplay.com. I still do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Burstein Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 and don't record so hot the limiters are activated! Both of those will make the echo sound worse. Hi Jay, I've noticed this in other threads as well and I've been meaning to ask. What is happening when the limiter is activated? I've read here on JW that some sound mixers turn off their limiters in situations such as iso recordings. In my eyes there must be a benefit to this, otherwise why not keep the limiter on at all times? What are the do's and don'ts for limiters? I apologize for the brief hijack of the topic. I can start another thread if necessary. Kindly, Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Hi Jay, I've noticed this in other threads as well and I've been meaning to ask. What is happening when the limiter is activated? I've read here on JW that some sound mixers turn off their limiters in situations such as iso recordings. In my eyes there must be a benefit to this, otherwise why not keep the limiter on at all times? What are the do's and don'ts for limiters? I apologize for the brief hijack of the topic. I can start another thread if necessary. Kindly, Alex It's not about whether the limiter is on or not (it's a good idea to have them on to protect from transients and clipping further down the recording chain) but has to do with the fact that if you are pegging the limiters consistently, your dynamic range is being compressed - ie the echo is being recorded louder than it needs to be. Similarly, you wouldn't use a compressor in post as all that would result is the reverb being brought higher in relation to the direct signal. Same deal with auto gain - as the echo trails off, the auto gain will raise the input volume, which will result in more echo being recorded, for longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Another issue in a space like this is crew noise--the rest of the crew has to avoid moving really at all during dialog, since the room amplifies any small sounds like that. The more soft stuff you can cram into that room off camera the better off you'll be--just like the effect of hanging towels in a bathroom. It's not a huge help but anything helps some. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Make sure that when you shoot the close ups, they shoot ALL of the dialogue for the scene in the CU shot. This will be your best chance at nailing the dialogue, and they may well be able to use the sound from the CU shots for some of the wider shots. If the actors are wearing clothes, then radio mic if the budget will stretch to it. Do not worry that there is reverberation, you are clearly shooting in there because the story and pictures want to say 'we are in a swanky swimmimg pool'. The sound can tell the same story, in fact, if there were to be no reverberation then that might feel very odd to the viewer. If there is bdget, and time, and your sparks/grips are friendly, then ask for some thick, maybe velvet, black drapes (ask for old ones as they will probably get wet) to be rented. Have the grips make goalposts to hang the drapes on, and put them in front af any walls that are not being seen. This might help reduce some of the sound reflections. Check that your DoP is OK with this... Good luck, and enjoy.... Simon B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlimp Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 It's not about whether the limiter is on or not (it's a good idea to have them on to protect from transients and clipping further down the recording chain) but has to do with the fact that if you are pegging the limiters consistently, your dynamic range is being compressed - ie the echo is being recorded louder than it needs to be. Similarly, you wouldn't use a compressor in post as all that would result is the reverb being brought higher in relation to the direct signal. Same deal with auto gain - as the echo trails off, the auto gain will raise the input volume, which will result in more echo being recorded, for longer. Damn, this happened to me once and I got burned real bad. First short movie, completely shot in a storage depot. Assuming location sound couldn't be that different from music recording, I used to drive the limiter on my mixer "just a bit" - just out of habit and not being alert enough. The first day's audio was... I mustn't think of it. Ouch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 " In my eyes there must be a benefit to this, otherwise why not keep the limiter on at all times? " probably worthy of a separate discussion... of course: it depends, and is usually a personal preference, and, IMO often an incorrect choice to have them off... I like protection, and properly set yp, that is what limiters provide... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Burstein Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 " In my eyes there must be a benefit to this, otherwise why not keep the limiter on at all times? " probably worthy of a separate discussion... of course: it depends, and is usually a personal preference, and, IMO often an incorrect choice to have them off... I like protection, and properly set yp, that is what limiters provide... Right. I agree. I can't find the posts that made me question turning the limiters off in specific scenarios, so perhaps I'll start a new thread and more people can weigh in on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 " turning the limiters off in specific scenarios, " back in the Nagra days, some folks turned the limiter(s) off for gunshots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 " turning the limiters off in specific scenarios, " back in the Nagra days, some folks turned the limiter(s) off for gunshots and? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 and? This would allow for serious tape saturation and distorsion which was a desired effect --- gunshots would sound like we expect gun shots to sound in movies (where gunshots typically did not sound like real gunshots). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 This would allow for serious tape saturation and distorsion which was a desired effect --- gunshots would sound like we expect gun shots to sound in movies (where gunshots typically did not sound like real gunshots). Yes I know that Jeff. I mean with "And?" what happened with tape and reels. Mike you turn off the limiter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 " what happened with tape and reels. " they have been rendered redundant... " Mike you turn off the limiter? " sometimes, it depends... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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