Sanken cs3e

[Rob Lewis]

Ok folks, I just received my Sanken CS-3e.  I did some comparison testing against my 416 and it seems to me that the CS-3e is noisier than the 416.  The rejection is fantastic and so is the reach, but the noise bothers me.  This makes my kit comprise of a 416, MKH60, CS3e, Schoeps CMC641 and MKH50.  I don't really want 3 short shotguns and it seems the noisiest should go.  Any opinions / experiences with the different mics ?  I have hear the CMIT5 and it is really quiet even at high gain, but the money cant swing it.

[Rob Stalder]

Mmmmmm, Ive had a Sanken CS-3 (not e) for as long as I can remember and I have 2 x 416, not any of the other mics you mention. Its no noisier than the 416's, but maybe its because Ive never had to wind it right up because of its amazing reach. Its a bit light on in the base response is my only other comment. It would be interesting to compare it to someone elses to see if there is an issue.

[gpiegari]

I have the older CS-3 version and self-noise is indeed

just about my only complaint about this mic.

Truth is I am rarely find myself in an environment that is

quiet enough for me to consider the self noise even

a slight issue.

Glen P.

[Bartek]

The cs3e does indeed have a noticebly higher self noise, use it indoors and its quite obvious.  Its great outside though!

[ProSound]

The self noise is higher but like glen and  Bartek said it is rarely an issue the reach is amazing though

[Rob Lewis]

I agree the reach is amazing and the low freq. is a little lacking, but I think that I just need time to see if it grows on me.  One of the reasons I purchased it is for the reach and rejection, with the ever growing use of wide angle lenses for everything, I find myself fighting the camera ops for precious headroom, and fighting the producers about the noisy environments.  They don't care about sound as long as the shot looks nice. 

[Philip Perkins]

Ok folks, I just received my Sanken CS-3e.  I did some comparison testing against my 416 and it seems to me that the CS-3e is noisier than the 416.  The rejection is fantastic and so is the reach, but the noise bothers me.  This makes my kit comprise of a 416, MKH60, CS3e, Schoeps CMC641 and MKH50.  I don't really want 3 short shotguns and it seems the noisiest should go.  Any opinions / experiences with the different mics ?  I have hear the CMIT5 and it is really quiet even at high gain, but the money cant swing it.

If you decide to bail on it I'll buy it from you used.  But before you bail, try it on a real job.  I bet you'll keep it after that.

Philip Perkins

[miker71]

I know it's not the only factor but data on the CS-3e tells me it outputs 40mV/Pa and the 416P48 outputs 25mV/Pa ... so the CS-3e is one hot mic (which is another reason I want one!) ... so in theory you'll need less gain with the CS-3e. In any case I have a small cache of old Sennheiser mics ranging from 805T to 416T and it kills me that their self-noise is so high ... yet on set that's the last of my worries and I've never yet been in a position where you could hear mic self-noise over the ambience of the set. I'd hazard a guess the CS-3e is a heck of a lot quieter than any of my T-power mics.

As to FR, the CS-3e is rated from 50Hz, and the 416 from 40Hz. The CMIT5U is rated at 17mV/Pa and also FR from 50Hz.

http://www.microphone-data.com/ is a great site for theoretical comparisons .... (no warranty for accuracy!)

[joecan]

Hi ,I did this summary on the CS3 and the CS3-E a few years ago.I had contacted Sanken Japan to send me a short comparison between the mics.This what they sent me.  Comparison of CS-3 and CS-3e:

Self noise: yes, CS-3e has 2dB better noise than CS-3.               

Let’s look at  the  two frequency responses  of CS-3 and CS-3e (0 degree, on axis)

CS-3

In the case of the CS-3, frequency keeps  flat till 200Hz, then starts  to decrease in 3dB/OCT slope till 50Hz, and slope changes to 6dB/OCT below 50Hz.

When HPF switch to “ON”, then frequency starts to drop from 2kHz gradually, and from 200Hz decrease slope becomes 6dB/OCT, and below 40Hz slope becomes 12dB/OCT.

CS-3e

In case of the CS-3e, frequency keeps flat till 70Hz. then starts steep drop in approx 25dB/OCT.  When “HPF” ON, drop starts  from 180Hz until 80Hz slope is 6dB/OCT, and slope changes to 20dB/OCT below 80Hz.

REASON:

According to our research, and feedback from users, in actual use of shotgun, specially to pick up men’s voice in rich  and full bodied sound frame, frequency response till 70Hz is essential.

However, from realistic point of view in practical “shotgun use”, frequency below 50Hz is not needed,it can cause more harm than good. Richest part of men’s voice is between 100Hz and 400Hz.The richest part of a woman`s voice is 300Hz to 1.5Khz.

But, in the case of the CS-3, frequency drop starts  from 200Hz, and at 50Hz approx 8dB decreased from 200Hz.

And because of not steep slope, even in 20 Hz,the CS-3 still has comparatively high sensitivity, and it’s unwanted.

Therefore, in the case of the CS-3e, we have decided to keep flat response till 70Hz and have steep drop consciously,with the HPF ON, this drop starts  from 180Hz.

This way, we aimed to get rich and full-bodied human’s voice, and reject unwanted low-end.

REJECTION of signal from other angle (sharp directivity):

When we look at the frequency graph,the CS-3 has 10dB reduction in the signal from 90 degree, at 100Hz, 200Hz, and 15dB in 500Hz and nearly 20dB or less above 1kHz. How about the signal from 180 degree?

10dB in 50 Hz, 18dB in 100Hz to 500Hz, and approx 20dB over 2kHz reduction.

The CS-3e, 90 degree, 10dB in 50Hz to 200Hz, 20dB in 2kHz and over 3kHz reduction is more than 20dB.

In case of 180degree, more than 10dB in 60Hz, more than 20dB in 200Hz, and keep this reduction till 10kHz.

THUS, we can see “sharp directivity” is kept in low-mid range in CS-3e.

Also, the E version has a more extended (more natural) low frequency response

than the original CS-3.

The “E” version has slightly lower self noise, but more importantly the reduction in noise is in the upper mid frequencies where the noise is most likely to be noticed (and the reduction most appreciated).

Joe

n.b.comments above from Sanken.

.

[Guest klingklang]

I know it's not the only factor but data on the CS-3e tells me it outputs 40mV/Pa and the 416P48 outputs 25mV/Pa ... so the CS-3e is one hot mic (which is another reason I want one!) ... so in theory you'll need less gain with the CS-3e.

While it is true that you will need less gain and therefor probably less pre-amp noise will be added. Those figures have nothing to do with the self-noise of the mic.

[taylormadeaudio]

I demo'ed a CS3e last summer after having seen it at NAB -- it was truly amazing how much rejection this mic had. 

The production I was mixing had one location that was hands-down the worst location I had ever experienced in terms of background noise.  They absolutely loved this location though -- for visual and logistical reasons. I was just told to do the best I could.  I still have nightmares, BTW.  We were up on a hillside, across a river (full of jet skis, power boats AND a sea plane) from:

• a small (but busy) municipal airport... out of which a helicopter training school operated daily...

• a train switching yard...

• a small paper mill...

• a police academy complete with barking K9's and a firing range...

I was all but sold on the CS3e when I noticed during a particular scene we were shooting that I was getting this really strange low-level 60Hz hum.  It was driving us crazy because we couldn't figure out where it was originating -- had to switch to the old reliable 416T in a hurry.  I should mention that this had happened at one other location previously (a small bridge) and we determined at that location that we were picking up EMF interference from the 3-phase power lines that were crossing the bridge.

Anyhow, we got through the scene and then had some time to mess with the CS3e and finally discovered that we were again picking up EMF interference -- this time it was from a string of Christmas lights on set!  The lights were powered off the genny -- everything properly grounded -- they were not on a squeezer.  The boom was wireless (Lectro) in both cases -- 416T and CS3e, and the cart is fully DC-powered with a 92AH AGM batt, a Xantrex 1800W sine wave inverter, and a Furman PL plus II power conditioner.  The Cooper 208 also has its own DC source.

I thought it might be a grounding issue, but with the CS3e, the level of noise was directly proportionate to the direction in which the mic was pointed (more noise the further on-axis we turned the mic toward the electrical source.)  We ran several tests with identical parameters using the 416T, the CMiT5U, and an MKH70 -- each was clear as a bell.

I wound up sending the mic back to Sanken and told them I was still interested in purchasing one, but that it may have some shielding issues in certain situations.

 

I'm just wondering -- has anyone else ever experienced anything similar with the CS3e?

--tom

[noni]

Hi guys, I have an issue about CMIT5 self-noise, in my mic kit I have mkh 416,mkh 60,cmc641 and cmit5, it seems that CMIT5 have a bit more self noise than others. Nobody from post did' t complain about that, but on set it' s little bit annoying me,  especially if I use cmc641 and cmit5 together in interior set up shooting quiet dialog. Anybody had a similar problem.

Thank' s

N

[bonobo]

Hi all,

about the CS3e. . . I've had this a fair amount with this mic - if you get near halogen downlights, for example, or kinoflos - anything giving off some high tension I guess, you get the hum of doom. It seems to be a proximity rather than directional issue, hence I feel it's an HT field problem?

I still think it's the best shotgun out there for it's reach and sound quality, but this is a serious achilles heel - you have to be able to trust your mics 100 percent, or you can never quite relax with them...

Any further thoughts?

Rob.

[Rob Stalder]

Guess theres no reason for me to consider upgrading my CS3 to a CS3e.

On an other note it is as useless inside in a bare walled room as a 416, unless the person is whispering.

[Philip Perkins]

Guess theres no reason for me to consider upgrading my CS3 to a CS3e.

On an other note it is as useless inside in a bare walled room as a 416, unless the person is whispering.

Actually I had pretty good luck with it in that sort of situation, esp compared to Senn or Neumann shotguns.  I also have had situations in which the CS3e picks up some sort of EM buzz, dependent on the position and attitude of the mic.  It's still worth it to have for the rejection in such a small light package.

Philip Perkins

[taylormadeaudio]

It's good to know I'm not the only one who's had these issues with the CS3e.  I guess it's one of those mics you have in your arsenal, and use it when you can.  I was really impressed with its capabilities as far as rejection and reach -- I'll still probably wind up picking one up someday.  But it's definitely dropped down on my list of priorities because of the EMF thing.  Who knows?  Maybe they'll figure it out and come out with a better version.

I hope everyone had a happy non-secular holiday weekend.  : )

--tt

[Philip Perkins]

It's good to know I'm not the only one who's had these issues with the CS3e.  I guess it's one of those mics you have in your arsenal, and use it when you can.  I was really impressed with its capabilities as far as rejection and reach -- I'll still probably wind up picking one up someday.  But it's definitely dropped down on my list of priorities because of the EMF thing.  Who knows?  Maybe they'll figure it out and come out with a better version.

I hope everyone had a happy non-secular holiday weekend.  : )

--tt

But I've had EMF issues with all the mics mentioned (except the DPA shotgun which I haven't had a chance to use yet) at at least one point over the years.....how about those special Neutrik connectors....(EMC/xlr series)?

Philip Perkins

[Rob Stalder]

Is there anyone who has had this interference problem with a CS3 as opposed to a CS3e. Ive never heard it on my CS3. Maybe I am going deaf after all.

If it is only on the CS3e then surely it is something that Sanken can address.

I have been thinking of mounting my two 816's on the lounge room wall (like crossed swords) as I have never used them since I bought the Sanken, such is its reach & rejection & lack of influence from any climatic environment I have used it in - over maybe eight years.

[Noah Timan]

 

I'm just wondering -- has anyone else ever experienced anything similar with the CS3e?

It doesn't do well with RFI from a Modulous/Canatrans either.  We've also had some other odd RFI interference issues with it on occasion.

[joecan]

Hi , I also have always had RM issues with my cs3e...just try swinging the cs3e near a tv set thats on or some neon lights above...or a motion detector alarm system fixed in a corner of a wall....or some types of smoke detectors fixed on a ceiling , these are some of the situations where I have gotten the hum.I also have swung my mic over a modulus unit and it does hum ,but I was about 12 inches from it to hear the hum.....did the same with my mkh 60 without any problems.I live with these bad points concerning this mic because I feel the strong and positive advantages that I have profited from using the cs3e far outweigh the hum/buzz problems that I rarely find myself in.

It is an issue that Sanken should look into and find a solution or at least be notified of the problem ( if they don't know about it already....).

I work for network tv and we have a mixture of cs3 and cs3e's at our disposal.I can test all of them ( about 16 of them ) next week to determine if this is a problem with the cs3e only and not the cs3 ? Will keep you posted for those of you that are interested.

Regards.

Joe.

[r.paterson]

hello

i got around problems with my cs3e by putting an neutrik EMC rfi XLR at Microphone and it eliminated a lot of the problems, my main thing with the CS3e which i love is that it has been to Japan twice in 2 years for TLC.

Richard paterson

[Fernando]

I had an issue with the CS3e some weeks ago.

The character was spraying water over his car, the mic (CS3e inside a Sennheiser suspension/windshield with no furry cover) was 1 meter away the water cloud.

The mic died intermitently in a wiard way. I switched to MKH60 and it did not happen anymore.

It was a weak water spray and the windshield didn't feel wet to my hands so it took a while to figure out (used to the MKH60 as I am)

So the mic seems to be pretty sensitive to moisture.

[Paul Graff]

I have not had these problems (myself--see next paragraph).  Yes, I hear noise when I wave the mic one foot from a Modulus or in front of a TV screen, but nothing that has affected my work (so far).  It's funny...I find that I always hear issues when I crank the headphones and test a mic that I don't hear when I'm actually using it.  I own a 416 and a 60 and recently sold my KMR-81, but for documentary-style work (and a lot of scripted stuff too) the CS-3e is my favorite tool.  Raise it up a couple of feet while someone is talking, ('cause the shot widens out), and it doesn't die out.  I love that.

Anyway, I did have another mixer on my show last summer complain about some interference issues with her CS-3.  She was a bit vague about it and I couldn't replicate it.  All the same, I swapped it out and sent it to Japan to be reborn as a CS-3e.  I had bought it used and was intending to have it converted eventually anyway to match the other Sankens.  It took a while to come home, but they even etched an "e" on the mic itself.  Kinda cute, I thought.  Makes you feel a little better for spending all that money.

I agree about the slight lack of fullness in the low end and I certainly look forward to employing my new 8050 whenever possible.  As shotguns go, I haven't used the Schoeps or the new DPA, but the CS-3e is a great tool.  Thanks Richard and Philip for the reminder about the Neutrik EMC rfi XLR.  I remember hearing about them before they were released and then forgot to follow up.  I bought a few yesterday (part # NC3 FXX-EMC) to put at the top of all my poles.  A good holiday project.  No downside, I figure, and I would like to prevent having some of these RFI problems y'all have experienced.  BTW, Richard, why did your CS-3e have to go to Japan twice?  Also, Joe, do you notice a real-world difference between the 3 and the 3e since you have access to so many of both?  Thanks for the summary of their differences from Sanken, too.

Regards,

Paul