atheisticmystic Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Evening folks, If you have a moment to critique my approach to a recent gig that will be ongoing... Talk show held in a jacuzzi, 2-3 guests and hosts are served alcohol, production and camera insist that jacuzzi be operating. Four 5D cameras running, with two wides, two tights. Host sits in right frame corner, guests to his right and left. There will be a camera on slider setup behind the standing DP shooting tights on the poolside jacuzzi edge. Camera in lower right frame shoots wide on a slider, camera on a slider behind the AC shoots tight on guests and tilts up to audience behind (thereby boning me) This camera shoots the bartender ( who is the "sidekick" and who is kept on a lav.) and basically kills most boom positioning. Strategy that I went with after discussions with producer: 1- Nixed: a)the use of waterproof lavs and transmitters due to all guests being up to their necks in water and cocktails b)multiple boom operators trying to negotiate four unpredictable frame lines. 2- Chose shotgun mics (3 x 416) and stated that a shallow angle could mitigate some of the water agitation. 3- Tested an air compressor placed at the other side of the house to fake the bubbles, but the "whir" of the pool filtration and jets was less ugly than the off and on "chug" of the compressor. Had nitrogen tanks for a trial, but didn't get around to it, and are heavy and prohibitively expensive. 4-Asked for host and guests to be fixed in place like a talk show to cooperate with the narrow pick-up patterns. Obvious problems: 1- Camera wins all on-set negotiations (except one), boom is boned by W/T placements, and backed up higher than the two feet previously agreed upon, necessitating a steeper angle and resulting in more water/jet noise. 2-Everybody at some point drifts off-axis. 3-Alcohol fueled folks just end up screaming over one another. 4-Guest list jumps to 6 Thoughts for next time: 1- Production will restrict alcohol and limit guests. 2- Three hypers or cardioids instead of shotguns to lock down the corner and two sides? 3- A decorative podium weighted down in the jacuzzi with boundary mics? 4-Camera has promised a more equitable negotiation next time. Any thoughts/critiques are welcome. Best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate C Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Shot something similar years back. Host was miced with a shotgun on a stand (416?) and a roving boom over guests. Spas are noisy as hell. Camera stitched us with the wides and tights. Was meant to have similar head room, but camera did their own thing and I kept getting the boom up call. Tried letting AD and director know that sound was getting screwed, but hey they liked the pretty pictures. Needless to say sound was shite. Producers weren't happy with the end result and decided to reshoot. Lets say some players weren't called back and second time around I've never heard is this going to work for sound so often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Flaitz Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 I don't often quote the Senator, but this seems like a situation of "unrealistic expectations". Looks like a pretty good set-up to me, I doubt hypers would be your solution since while they would have better off axis sound, they would also pick up more Jacuzzi sound. Lavs in hair maybe? But I doubt you could count on the hosts not turning around exposing the wire, and they said no anyway so... Maybe try to rent CS3e, supposedly better off axis rejection and better reach than 416s, but that would also hurt when the hosts go off axis... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Ummm... There's no show if nobody can hear the words. For that you need microphones. You know it, they know it, and the audience knows it. Put microphones where it's required to hear what's going on. If they must be in frame, then they must be in frame. Put 416s on stands around the jacuzzi, maybe. Suspend something overhead. Whatever it takes. Hide mics in shrubs dressed around jacuzzi. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 The way this scene is designed they are pretty much going to have to see mics. So the choice is either to try to make them as small and invisible as possible (like capsules with extension cables on home-made fixed length skinny black booms) or make the mics part of the show--invite actor comment on them, bling them up with LEDs and glow-sticks etc etc. Make fun collars with both a lav and a TX (in back) on them, and so on. If they insist on boom mics and the mics go up (to clear a wide shot) you have no dialog. No dialog, no show. Canna change the laws of physics (or TV economics), Captain. Return the onus to the producers--do you want all the dialog or not? Let's get creative. How about we fake the bartender wide shot in another setup, and keep the mics where they need to be for the rest? philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 I seem to recall when Eddie Murphy did James Brown's Celebrity Hot Tub on SNL back in the 1980s, he used a handheld wireless: That will work, but it's obviously not a great solution. My choice would be head-mounted Countryman E6's (like a Broadway shoot). Isn't there a syndicated reality show on late night, Cheaters, where at least part of the show consists of two contestants in a hot tub? But in that case, I think it's only a medium shot and two tight shots, which is workable from a boom. The other consideration would be to experiment to see if maybe some of the jacuzzi jets can be disabled, so it's only "somewhat" bubbly. Note that there's also going to be pump noise and other kinds of rumble in the BG. Tests are definitely advised -- this could be a very unworkable scenario unless they can do some compromises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesper Magnusson Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 My first immediate thought, as RP Sharman touched on, is plant mics. Maybe hidden in something made to look like a part of the jacuzzi (like a spherical bowl on even distances around it with holes in them). Your idea about a decorative podium could work, or perhaps a small table in the middle for their drinks. Lav in hair seems like it could work well (seeing a small cable with headturns etc might not a big deal if the alternative is unusable sound), and I quite liked Philip Perkins' suggestion of dressing up the booms and make them a "fun" addition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Headworn mics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnewton Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 All very good ideas from everyone. One non-sound note: I hope all those kinos are powered from GFI circuits. Because the production seems to be (from your descriptions so far) a bunch of fuck ups, I wouldn' t count on things being safe. Be afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 And the lights are clearly in frame. So why not the mics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordi Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 And the lights are clearly in frame. So why not the mics. Because WE have to be invisible, but the lights are "acceptable as a part of the show" according to the camera department...? Like others have said: No dialog, no show. Maybe change that to No dialog, no MONEY so the producer will understand it. I really like the idea of a central podium / decorative table that you can cover with plant mics. Even if they were a collection of B6's concealed and pointed in the direction of the guests... That would probably get less complaint than the giant booms. At NAB a couple years ago, I also saw something interesting from Audix - it was a 6 foot long 1/4" thick rod, with a tiny swappable capsule on the end of a short gooseneck. Tiniest boom I've ever seen, and in the dark, would be damn near invisible in that setup. Put a hyper capsule on the end, you might still have some pump noises in it, but you also could get in closer than the 416 with the fur. Only other option would be the CS3e - I own one, and the dang thing is a magic microphone. Seems like it only captures what I want, and ignores all the bad noise. I love the thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 3 mic's is a lot more noise than 1 mic. Why not hire a pro boom op and keep it simple n safe? CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmahaAudio Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Talk show held in a jacuzzi... Not to take anything from you producing good sound but yuck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Good boom man with CS3e-----tell them that this is a TALK show,it's all about the talk or kick a couple of those crappy cameras into the water---accidentily J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrider Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 I could understand a wide shot when guests are entering or exiting the jacuzzi. But why would you need a wide shot other than that? I don't understand why you couldn't boom practically all of it, to go high and wide during the interview itself doesn't make much sense. If they want to reinvent the talk show, they are going to have to compromise on their framing. If not, I agree that plant mics on a little floating island in the tub is the best alternative to booming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 3 mic's is a lot more noise than 1 mic. Why not hire a pro boom op and keep it simple n safe? CrewC +1. Words to live by. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) " Talk show held in a jacuzzi, 2-3 guests and hosts are served alcohol, production and camera insist that jacuzzi be operating. Four 5D cameras running, with two wides, two tights. " before I even read more, I get a yellow flag for unreasonable expectations. and another for another wanna-bee with a half-baked idea, and no proper funding, among the many things missing on this POS project...I see a red flag being readies...the alcohol is a red flag. OK reading more: another yellow flag on the funding: " are heavy and prohibitively expensive. " " Camera has promised a more equitable negotiation next time. " like allowing mic's where they need to be, and possibly in the shots..? headworn or HH..? ah, I see that Robert addressed that, too: " There's no show if nobody can hear the words. For that you need microphones. You know it, they know it, and the audience knows it. " and Philip mentioned: " Canna change the laws of physics " BTW, " Note that there's also going to be pump noise " reinforces the $$ yellow flag, as proper budget could build a quieter jacuzzi, with a built in podium with goose-neck mic's... " something interesting from Audix - " I've used the Audix 1280 HC and 1280s and their micro-booms myself, and they are terrific, but how about SUPER CMIT's ?? for a live mix, multiple mic's are a bigger issue than for a post produced show, where ISO's can be remixed and worked on... now the yellow flag on budget is a red flag! Edited November 13, 2012 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Have fun. The sound will be shite, no matter what you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 You could always ask them to do the talk show UNDER the water, with oxygen masks on and dub it later. That way the producers can control what the talkees are saying also... Just an idea. If you go for it, let me know where I send my bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snd.waves Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Something needs to happen, but has anyone had success with plant mics in a situation like this? Surely a last resort only in a quiet space. Wouldnt it just be bubbles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCWester Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Where can one watch this program? ... I'd be very interested in seeing the finished product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 " Where can one watch this program? " Vemo ? YouTube ? BTW: are the people naked ? or just drunk ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCWester Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 " Where can one watch this program? " Vemo ? YouTube ? BTW: are the people naked ? or just drunk ?? Preferably BOTH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheisticmystic Posted November 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 All wonderful suggestions, and I greatly appreciate everyone's time. The most embarrassing question to ask is, "So an experienced and professional boom operator can keep impromptu dialog on axis while avoiding four constantly changing frame lines, or I smack some sense into production, make them get realistic about frame lines and THEN hire the experienced Boom Op ?" Many thanks again, Steven (PS. No nudity that I can recall, but I did partially disrobe to use the restroom...but everybody does that, right?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Something needs to happen, but has anyone had success with plant mics in a situation like this? Surely a last resort only in a quiet space. Wouldnt it just be bubbles? That's what I was thinking. A plant mike on the edge of the jacuzzi will get 75% bubbles and (at best) 25% dialogue. And there's still the problem of pump & motor noise and vibration. Those things are noisy as hell, at least when all the jets are going. I almost wish they could do one pass as a wide shot, then stop, go back in for close-ups, then shut off all the pumps and bubbles and get actual dialogue (with some minor bubble SFX added in post). I'm not sure there's any other way to do this and get reasonable sound quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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