Tim M Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 So the race to the bottom is a popular term around here. It seems to me that in all likelihood this isn't a particularly new term. People can say that about almost any new generation of gear to come out. One of the reasons I chose this field was for it's barriers to entry. Although scores of newbies pop into the field, there aren't nearly as many as the post-grad post audio engineers who THINK they have a degree in a particular purpose, or even worse the composers degree which probably a hundred thousand students obtain and less than a few thousand can actually make a living at. Location sound mixing is not a degree that one can readily find at many universities. This I believe is what is helping keep the rates relatively high. At what point will because of equipment prices/ease of ability of camera ops to also do audio/economy will our positions either based on rate or ability disappear or become negligible? Is that time already here even? For some reason I believe in the back of my head that at some point something will be introduced into the market (much like digital recording or talkies) that was in response wipe out my/our positions overnight. When I'm 50 I want to remember this forum and hope it will be in a book form...but I am not sure that this craft will always be here for some reason. Cynic? Maybe Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pverrando Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Reality tv, credit cards, VER and forums like this have basically removed any barriers for entry. You certainly don't need a college education to do this. "Audio Engineer" is a misnomer. An engineer uses math & science to design and build things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Babb Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 An engineer uses math & science to design and build things. And drive trains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Holesome Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 I await the day technology makes it affordable and possible for me to drive trains. I guess as an Audio Engineer I could at least sound the horn?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pverrando Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 The knowledge, experience and certifications required of a railroad engineer far exceed any level of expertise in sound recording...they also make more money, have a functional union and excellent benefits! No college required! And a railroad worker at 50 is considered young! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 The knowledge, experience and certifications required of a railroad engineer far exceed any level of expertise in sound recording... ... Speak for yourself. The certifications, maybe, but it isn't necessarily true of the other two stipulations. There are people here who have been at this for many years and who continue to learn every day they're on the job. Math, science, and people skills all come into play every day for many of us. I've seen semi-skilled mixers fall flat on their face because they didn't understand levels and impedances (math). If you're not taking the acoustics of every location into account, you're not performing up to par (acoustical sciences and math), and on, and on. A railroad engineer may have greater requirements for entry (which might be what you actually meant) but their "knowledge, experience ... level of expertise" does not necessarily exceed that of many of the more experienced and capable sound mixers here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 But, isn't this December 21st the "cutoff date" for civilization? So, we don't really need to worry too much about the future of our industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 " I've seen semi-skilled mixers fall flat on their face because they didn't understand levels and impedances (math). " well... err... ah... semi-skilled do not get to be certificated engineers, meanwhile, many at jwsoundgroup are complaining that the semi-skilled are undercutting the day rates of the fully-skilled here... thus I believe there is truth in what Pete has said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Though, there are a lot less train engineers than there were 100 years ago. Trains also require a much smaller crew than they did 100 years ago, and current trains require far less maintenance than they did. I heard somewhere that coal/steam trains spent over a week/month getting maintained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Whatever gear is created in the future, near or distant, someone will need to deal with it. That will be the sound clown. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 The golden age of a location mixer may be waning/done, and replaced by post people mixing in a controlled studio. Blame technology for having more than one or two recording tracks, which is a relatively new thing in the big picture. Even if our job was reduced to 100% trackers (or whatever the term is), there still has to be somebody to wire everyone, set up the gear, manage it bla bla bla. On a scripted set, somebody will be mixing, even if it is for IFB/dailies. How often is somebody wired well before their scene, so somebody has to keep their mic out of the monitor feed until they are on set. In a way, that's what some people have been reduced to now. We may be even more technicians than we are now, but there's still work to be had. Unless there is some sort of quantum leap in mic technology, somebody will be booming too. I will use actors as my example. Think about the crazy shit they do to mics and have no idea it's a problem, our jobs are safe for trained individuals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmahaAudio Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 The knowledge, experience and certifications required of a railroad engineer far exceed any level of expertise in sound recording... Not for "O" gauge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsnd Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Heres the thing (and I have talked to a couple of you personally about this) What most people see as "sound engineer" in no way has anything to do with engineering. The majority of sound people are "sound operators". At no time do they do anything that falls under the description of engineering, which is - using math and science to create and build. I read this forum every day, and I know countless people in the field. It's astonishing to me how many of these people have no idea how to solder a XLR, or better yet, EVEN KNOW THE PIN ASSIGNMENTS! These people are not "engineers", yet some do very well in the field. That is because the actual practice of operating an audio mixer/recorder, is really not that difficult at all. No longer do you have to do any of the maintenance on a machine like you had to do in the reel to reel days, (or even the dat days really) it's all plug and play. Yes, lav placement, mixing, and timecode (I say timecode loosely because a lot of sound people don't understand it themselves) are all things that don't take a whole lot of knowledge or education, Just practice. I honestly do not see the position of "production sound mixer" lasting through what one would consider a full career for the people just coming into it. Take into account some of the technologies that are new within the last few years. Automix - automix can often mixer better tracks with better precision and speed than any human could Low cost, high quality, easy to use gear - self explanatory. Outboard video recording with multi-channel audio in (think alexa external recorders, SD PIX series)(no sync required) im starting to run out of time so Ill just ad - and a bunch of other things... What happens when you add these technologies together? (A PIX device with multichannel audio/video recording, and automix.) several jobs just mixed into one. as long as there is still a boom, there will be a boom op, and there will still be audio "techs", but the actual job of mixing sound for picture on set, if you ask me, has a very limited life. A limited life that is quickly coming to an end. It has already happened in broadcast. Many low budget stations no longer have anybody running a console. A large percentage of broadcasters (some really big names) do not have dedicated audio people. A couple of weeks ago while I was visiting a major broadcaster that we all know very well, it was told to me that audio is the first place a person with no experience goes when they start at the company. It's only a matter of time before it happens to scripted (and non-scripted) as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 I hear the same complaint from DIT's: they're very upset that cheap-ass producers are content with just hiring a P.A. to copy files and apply some arbitrary look to the camera, but have no real experience knowing what good pictures are, how to handle data problems, the differences between different camera RAW outputs, and so on. And I know of a few low-budget DPs who (through circumstance) are basically forced to be their own DIT, which really is a completely different job from that of the cinematographer. So I think it's hitting many different facets of the industry -- not just sound. And... NBC/Universal just had a pretty big layoff in the last week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsnd Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 And... NBC/Universal just had a pretty big layoff in the last week. Many of those people were quite surprised I hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 .. and get used to the words, ".. that has their own gear", in which the producers only hear the words, "all gear provided by the sound mixer is FREE". Really.. try walking into an Enterprise Rent-A-Car, and ask if they own their own cars.. and since they did, can you rent me one for free?? -Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordi Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Really.. try walking into an Enterprise Rent-A-Car, and ask if they own their own cars.. and since they did, can you rent me one for free?? -Richard Brilliant. I may have to steal that, for the next time I'm attempting to negotiate an equipment rate on one of these "all-in" bag-of-pain gigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Fernando Valls Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 To steal a point from "Hector and the Search for Happiness," it may be that after we've finally acquired all that we want, in our professional and personal lives - change may logically manifest as our greatest fear. So I suppose positively embracing the inevitable can be a constructive way to deal with the question, "Will my job go away?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 Location sound mixing is not a degree that one can readily find at many universities. True. But it's necessary to have education and study the audio in these days. Many "audio engineers" here in Greece (40+ years old) they don't have degree in audio but for electrical engineer. In little words. My university and BA Hons it's one paper. My mixing skills it's the official paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattinSTL Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 I wouldn't be too concerned about the evolution of this industry because time is money... and a good sound guy pays for himself by saving way more hours ($$$) further down the production chain. Sooner or later productions figure this out. In my area... all the production people know each other directly or indirectly... and it doesn't take long for people to thrive or die based on their own merit. There will always be crap productions that don't care about sound... and it will always show in the end result. Is the sound industry changing or is the world is changing? People don't automatically want the most expensive, or the cheapest... but everybody wants the best value... even if the best value is the best and most expensive option... they need to believe that first. If you're good at what you do... sell yourself. Confidently. Make sure the people who do the hiring understand what you do and what you'll bring to the production... and the money you'll save them in post. As for gear? I can't imagine there will ever be a piece of gear that can anticipate all the problems that a human being must address on the fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Pert Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 I agree with MattinSTL. There will alway be low budget productions trying to do things cheaply and they may choose to not use a sound mixer, and there will always be higher budget productions that understand the value of a good mixer. I'm not worried about the sustainability of sound mixing. There is value in it an those who get it understand this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephensharrod Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 This is a balance Ive been trying to find, Ive only been in it for a few years. But some people (at my level) Just don't care about getting good sound. Or its an after thought. It's guys like Tarantino and Woody Allen, who I appreciate who have the no ADR policy. It makes me feel my job is still important (at least in terms of feature or short work) As for the gear, yes it's getting more affordable and simpler but its also a matter of whats needed for the job. Yes a H4n is great and cheap, but you wouldn't want to use it on a feature...except people do. But they'll will always be that level of production that knows what is needed. That's my two cents on it, I'd write more but I'm on set right now, but I want to get accommodated to the boards, I heard about this years ago and am finally getting into it. Hussah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sounddguy Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 ... and current trains require far less maintenance than they did On last week's shoot - freight cars have an expected life of 25 years. Watching them rework wheel assemblies was remarkable. Jack the car up off the 4 wheel carriage...replace what's worn....slide the carriage back under the car...lower car and push it out onto the yard. Probably had 6 or more cars reworked behind me while we shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 I never found it wise to put my all my eggs in one basket. History has proven that jobs come and go as civilizations evolve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephensharrod Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 I never found it wise to put my all my eggs in one basket. History has proven that jobs come and go as civilizations evolve. It's true, which is why alternatively I hope to be a director............... except not really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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