Christian Spaeth Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 What do you (mixers) do when you, for whatever reason, didn't get the mix right for a shot's last take (i.e. The one that the director sticks with) - but you know it's all there in the ISOs. Do you A. ask for another take B. just note "remix please" or something alike in your sound report C. Do and say nothing and leave it to post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 It depends. If by "the mix" you really mean the mixing, cross fades, cues, etc. not being right (microphones on the actors, you missed a line or brought someone up to not a good mix level, etc.) to your mix track, I would just make a note to re-mix from isos. Certainly if this is the last take I wouldn't ask for another. If, on the other hand, this last take is coverage and my mix involved bringing in an off camera line or an overlap or something that compromises the integrity of the coverage (and cannot be "repaired" re-mixing the iso sources), then I would ask for another take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 It depends. If by "the mix" you really mean the mixing, cross fades, cues, etc. not being right (microphones on the actors, you missed a line or brought someone up to not a good mix level, etc.) to your mix track, I would just make a note to re-mix from isos. Certainly if this is the last take I wouldn't ask for another. If, on the other hand, this last take is coverage and my mix involved bringing in an off camera line or an overlap or something that compromises the integrity of the coverage (and cannot be "repaired" re-mixing the iso sources), then I would ask for another take. ditto -- gotta give those post people something to do ; ) ~tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 It really depends on what is going on.... How crunched are they for time, what is the relationship with the director, how long or complicated was the take, how bad was it, was the set relaxed or stressed out... Did you have ISOs?... a LOT of variables.... That being said: I always say, hey, they do takes for camera, grips, talent, lighting, effects on and on... we are not perfect.... If you need another one, fess up and say so, I am never afraid to do it... we are only human... if after 100 takes, YOU need another crack at it, I can't imagine NOT being able to ask, but again, other factors contribute to that decision... Simply noting and moving on may be the safest, for the time being, and it may never come to anything.... They CAN remix from the ISOs...but if you need another, just say so... I do... Nobody can argue with not being perfect... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 I've always lived by this: Being perfect is never expected. Being honest is. Never be afraid to own a fuckup. But never ever ever try to cover t up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) " then I would ask for another take. " ... and on any proper (experienced, budgeted) production, the answer is usually an immediate "going again". sometimes it hurts a little to admit having screwed up, but it would be worse to just ignore it (if it is bad, ultimately the production will know!)..,. We hear camera operators ask for another, and get it, and it should be the same for us, usually I say something as simple as "I can do better", or I'd like another, and any professional crew just automatically responds with, ..."pictures up..." and no questions even asked! (I see AFMY said this while I was typing...) Of course there are a lot of "it depends" attached, and they vary from production to production, and on specific circumstances (I could probably write a book) but no professional would select option C unless they already knew their post workflow and crew very well, but even then there would be a note in the sound report and by the script super....(and Henchman said this, too) Edited November 26, 2012 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark LeBlanc Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 if its in a certain point in the scene I might ask I'd we can do a pickup instead of the whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 1. Ask for another take if the mix is not good (for X,Y reason). 2. Don't forget the ADR at the end of the takes.. With you and the actor at location. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 I agree with most of the above. If it's clear the take is great, it's the performance and timing (camera move), etc., they have been looking for, and the mix is not perfect but I know the ISOs are good, I'll typically note the report and hope that someone reads it. They do on my current show. If it seems that they're on the fence, or camera is mumbling about maybe going again, then I'll have my boom op chime in that we'd like another too. It usually tips the scales. I differ with Senator's assessment that on a professional set they'll simply go again. EVERY time I ask for another, there's a discussion that's longer than another take, about why another is required, etc. It's never just "going again". Like Jeff wrote, it's important to know the difference between a bad mix and a bad take regarding the usefulness of the ISOs. And keep in mind, not liking your mix doesn't make it "bad". Choose your "I need another" times wisely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfisk Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 I've always lived by this: Being perfect is never expected. Being honest is. Never be afraid to own a fuckup. But never ever ever try to cover t up. In my experience in the post and video game world, this is VERY true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 " EVERY time I ask for another, there's a discussion that's longer than another take, " well, I guess I was spoiled by 7+ years on a really good show, in fact during season 4 or 5 the UPM and I were chatting about some stuff, and he reminded me that if I ever needed another take, all I had to do is say so!-- and yes, I was on another show for about the same number of years, but on that one, I quickly (first day!) learned that production's (much lower) threshold and adjusted my requests accordingly! (and I've actually replaced at least one mixer who was not able to do that on another show!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Kittappa Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 We've all been there- missed a cue, NP1 battery dies mid take, brain fart. Nothing wrong with asking for another take if needed- Actors and camera ops do it all the time, so why not sound? I'm usually honest and say that I made a boo boo, but if the atmosphere is really tense and I know that they don't have the patience then there are a 101 technical things that 'could have gone wrong' as a reason for another take. If it's a difficult shot and time is short and I know that my isos are good then a note on the sound log may be enough. Post is probably going to remix it anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Marts Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 Being perfect is never expected. Being honest is. My response to a screw-up is usually "Hey, if I were perfect, I wouldn't be here". Nobody argues with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Nault Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 I differ with Senator's assessment that on a professional set they'll simply go again. EVERY time I ask for another, there's a discussion that's longer than another take, about why another is required, etc. It's never just "going again". +1! Always a discussion, usually starting with 'How bad was <insert issue here>'. Depending on my relationship with the director, I always politely remind them that I don't do the "How bad was it?"discussion. And then let them know that it was enough of an issue for me to point out that there was, in fact, some sort of issue. An old soldier once pointed out to me as well, that he always kept rolling on these 'negotiations' - in case someone down the line thought there was an issue, but the decision was made to not do an extra take. R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 Good question and very good answers. I wish I had something new to add other than never fear saying I f'd up. If they don't give you another shot, hey it's their game, you are just a player. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 My response to a screw-up is usually "Hey, if I were perfect, I wouldn't be here". Best retort of the day! Thanks for that one, Bob. I've had them bark at me when I just asked for a wild line, which was a somewhat tense experience. But I held my ground and we got the line. (No doubt, some editor will thank me later, if I live that long.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Spaeth Posted November 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 Great answers everyone! The question arose from my specific situation, at my current production, where I know the posties well and know they can and do remix. But I also know the editor would rather not go into the ISOs. They will if they have to. Hence the question if even though you know it is all there in the ISOs, do you afford the luxury of asking for another take (only for your mix's sake). My principal task is to deliver each line in an acceptable quality. If the lav was scratchy or the boom was off, of course I'll ask for another take. If the director refuses I will note that down in my report, sometimes even tell the scripty to write it into the editor's report and do a wild line (which may or may not work in post). They do read the scripty reports and that way I won't have to defend myself later. Plus, if the director realizes that something like that gets written down, chances are they will be more open to my requests in the future (almost always has this effect). Imagine the director asking in te editing room why a line is not there, and the editor goes "report says you said it was OK". If there is nothing in the report, they won't remember and instead think it was the sound guy's fault. And if I really really need another take and don't want to discuss, I will say that my battery cut out or something like that. You need to know what to tell them in order to get what you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattinSTL Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 " EVERY time I ask for another, there's a discussion that's longer than another take, " I've seen this so many times... It'll be something that literally took 30 seconds to deliver... and then we talk about whether or not we can do another take for a minute after I ask for another take. I just smile and go with whatever they want... so far they keep calling me back. Now I did have a time recently on a show where a minute into a personal interview... I looked down and to my horror, the rec light was blinking... not just on... *UGH*... yeah... I stopped them and said I had an issue with my recorder and we needed to re-start. (cue David Letterman collar loosen move)... fortunately stuff like that almost never happens... and that was at the end of a 14 hour day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 I differ with Senator's assessment that on a professional set they'll simply go again. EVERY time I ask for another, there's a discussion that's longer than another take, about why another is required, etc. It's never just "going again". Yeah, so imagine the time wasted on less than professional sets. I'm not even talking about a stunt or something with more setup than the dolly going back on the track. Im my experience it's usually an AD that is more worried about making the day than getting the right shot, and has the personality that they would rather argue than let camera or sound "run their set". You have to know your show, sometimes the take before the last take was the one the director liked best anyway, and they were trying something a little different. Sometimes that is pretty much whispered to scripty, so being off at a cart I rarely know which is the circle take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Spaeth Posted November 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 Now I did have a time recently on a show where a minute into a personal interview... I looked down and to my horror, the rec light was blinking... not just on... *UGH*... yeah... I stopped them and said I had an issue with my recorder and we needed to re-start. (cue David Letterman collar loosen move)... fortunately stuff like that almost never happens... and that was at the end of a 14 hour day. Been there. Tough move but you feel quite a relief after saying it. And before you do, every second you wait is like an hour... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 " I've seen this so many times.. " just to be clear, MattinSTL was quoting me quoting someone else, my friend Robert Sharman; I guess I was spoiled years ago working on a couple of shows that even reminded me that if I ever wanted to go again, there would be no question of it (and there wasn't)... But those sets always had the highest production values, there were two security guards outside the stages who would stop traffic (and idling engines, too) when the red wig-wag came on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Reineke Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 When I screw up, (which rarely happens.. yeah right) I bring it to the attention of the AD, stating we should do another take, or at least a wild take. Whether they do it or not, is up to the directors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordi Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 When I screw up, (which rarely happens.. yeah right) I bring it to the attention of the AD, stating we should do another take, or at least a wild take. Whether they do it or not, is up to the directors. This is what I do anytime I am in scripted productions. In the world of reality, they don't really know what the word 'cut' means anyway. If something needs to be adjusted, you kinda just have to interrupt and fix it. Reality just never stops to take a breath. Screwed something up? Interrupt and fix it, or work past it, it probably won't be worried about anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Andrews Posted November 28, 2012 Report Share Posted November 28, 2012 I'd say.. "It depends". How did you screw up? Are there ISOs? Is it something small/easily fixed or something unsalvageable? Are you going to be covering the action again from another take/angle? I am probably in the wrong when I say that with most scripted drama, as long as we get at least one good take or wildtrack with audio coverage, it's possible for Post to deal with a small mistake or a missed cue (whether they do or not, is another story..). If we have that, I will probably let it go and make a little note of it, eg, "channel 1 fader a little low". Of course if the whole take is unusable and they want to move on, you have to own up and ask them to go again. If it's just a small bit of the take, maybe ask for a pickup. Even with just my few years experience, I've had producers and directors thank me for speaking up, so I am never be afraid to do so when needed. I'm equally careful not to overdo it too; don't want to be the boy who cried wolf. ~Mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 This is all very interesting. I would have thought that with the ISO's we have now that messing up the mono mix track would be kind of a non-important thing. If you're tracking 4 lavs down to one track on a 2 track recorder, I can see the problem. But, with the ISO's, I'd have thought that you could just remix in post, grab the boom iso, etc. I mean, don't they typically have to EQ the crap out of lavs in post to make them work in a shot, which would mean they'd have to re-do the mix anyway? With a boom, it is just a matter of being on-axis or not, which I can understand is a huge issue because there's no fixing THAT later. If the lav sounds scratchy and terrible and will definitely be used in the final mix, then of course I'd run it again. I admittedly have very limited experience mixing dramatic works of the TV or Film ilk, so I can't speak to that. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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