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I read this, and found the following quote interesting, and I think points out a big misunderstanding of how business is run:

"Cattle Ranchers feed their cattle off of public land for free. Timber companies harvest trees from public land for free. Oil companies extract oil from under American land for free. Miners dig minerals and ore from Americas mountains for free. Businessmen are allowed the privilege of owning a corporation and protection from liability as a free gift from the American people."

There is no misunderstanding. Businesses are allowed to operate with no personal financial liability when things go pear shaped. And can happily file for bankruptcy after raiding the company of all assets. Leaving the public holding the bag.

Big business worked hard on lobbying to take that same right of bankruptcy away fom the individual.

Not only do oil companies get to take what really belongs to all Americans,they bend us over backwards at the pumps as thanks.

And then, as a privilege, we give them massive subsidies every year.

Something is very wrong with that picture.

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I don't like that cattle destroyed the public lands. They are an invasive species, and to make the landscape easier for them, things like wolves and buffalo were exterminated. They are also a contributing factor to the dustbowl, where the buffalo would actually help prevent it (before factory farming at least).

I don't like that national forests are scouted for oil and gas drilling.

I don't like that national forests have been logged. NOW they may be cutting trees their fathers planted, but that's because there is hardly anything big and old left. I just worked on a reality show and we were on farms and in barns and all over PA there were trees that were so wide they could make a kitchen table out of a single plank. I just stood there staring at the beauty of the wood. These were utilitarian tables, not a rarity for the rich. It kind of kills me that trees like that are pretty much all gone in this country. We think of 100 years as a really old tree.

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There is no misunderstanding. Businesses are allowed to operate with no personal financial liability when things go pear shaped. And can happily file for bankruptcy after raiding the company of all assets. Leaving the public holding the bag.

Big business worked hard on lobbying to take that same right of bankruptcy away fom the individual.

Not only do oil companies get to take what really belongs to all Americans,they bend us over backwards at the pumps as thanks.

And then, as a privilege, we give them massive subsidies every year.

Something is very wrong with that picture.

Did you read what I quoted? Nothing about running a business is free, and the author says it is. Incorporating a business costs money. Running a logging business costs money. Raising cattle costs money. Drilling for oil costs money. Do you think I can just start drilling holes in the ground and start pumping oil on public land? No. I can't. You have to pull permits, have insurance, pay workers, pay for equipment...you know..all that stuff that creates jobs. There is nothing free about it. The author makes it look like these businesses are just running around willy nilly, which isn't the case. Trust me, I work in manufacturing. It isn't as easy as the author makes it out to be.

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Drilling for oil costs money. Do you think I can just start drilling holes in the ground and start pumping oil on public land? No. I can't. You have to pull permits, have insurance, pay workers, pay for equipment...you know..all that stuff that creates jobs.

The story, as I've heard it, is that Ed Doheny was prospecting for gold in Alaska but had no luck. He drifted down into Southern California and bought a house just south of Wilshire, not far from the LaBrea Tarpits. Looking at the tarpits, he surmised that there must be oil near that much tar. And oil strikes in Pennsylvania had been very lucrative. He got together with a friend and began digging for oil in the backyard of his home. Literally. They didn't know anything about drilling; they just went to work with a pick and shovel.

They hit a gusher ten feet down. If anybody had been building those houses east-coast style with a basement, they would have struck oil that much sooner. Ed Doheny and his friend flooded Wilshire Blvd. before they were able to cap the well.

Doheny made so much money from his find that a few years later he, and some associates, actually tried to buy the government of the United States. (But that's another story.)

I don't mean to weigh in on the issue of companies getting, or not getting, a free ride by operating commercial enterprises on public land. Usually they do pay licensing fees or, failing that, at least taxes, but some enterprises do benefit greatly from access to public land that is at least partially subsidized. Sometimes that's a good thing in that the extracted wealth benefits the larger community. Sometimes it's not so good and robber barons exploit the wealth almost exclusively for their own benefit.

But, politics aside, I thought it a good story.

David

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...just because there is conservative support for the FairTax, you DISMISS IT?

The proper thing to do is look at the plan, see that it really is BS, and THEN dismiss it. That's what I've done. The fact that the only support for the mis-named "Fair Tax" comes, not just form conservatives but from selfish conservatives is not surprising.

You know what I HATE - having to hire someone to figure out my taxes every year

I use TurboTax. I tend to reserve my hatred for things like war, famine and disease.

You pay on what you spend.

So screwing the poor and most of the people that work for a living, hence the reference to "selfish conservatives".

…by the way - it does eliminate evasion and the temptation to do so.

Guess again. Ever hear of the "black" economy? Cash payments and off-the-books transactions to avoid paying taxes? That would run rampant under your mis-named "FairTax" system so the amount of revenue available for things like, oh, police and fire departments, the armed forces and such would never be enough to properly fund such things. Of course you might be happy going back to a "wild west" culture and a breakdown of our legal system but most people prefer civilization.

Why the f** is it "anything BUT fair"

You'd hate it if it ever came to pass.

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Incorporating a business costs money

Ain't you glad you live in a country that has a vibrant and protected legal system that makes it so easy and inexpensive to form and run a corporation? Taxes pay for that.

Running a logging business costs money. Raising cattle costs money. Drilling for oil costs money.

Those costs are substantially lower than they would be without cheap or free access to publicly owned land.

Do you think I can just start drilling holes in the ground and start pumping oil on public land? No. I can't. You have to pull permits, have insurance, pay workers, pay for equipment...you know..all that stuff...

But what you might NOT have to pay for is the land and the rights to whatever is under it, saving you a boatload of money and making it much easier for you to profit from your endeavors. It's sort of like how a "free graphite tubing" program coupled with a "free high quality audio cable" program would really help you out in your business.

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It's sort of like how a "free graphite tubing" program coupled with a "free high quality audio cable" program would really help you out in your business.

Ah, but graphite and audio cable aren't natural resources. Somebody has to make those. If graphite tubes and audio cable started sprouting out of the ground it would be a different story. Plus, if graphite tubes and audio cables were in the ground, it would take a good amount of work to get those materials out of the ground, clean them, and THEN make product out of it. There is cost in doing business no matter how you slice it. And the example of the guy digging in his back yard and hitting oil doesn't really apply here because that was that guy's private property. Interesting story though. It would be cool to see video of that.

The point here is nothing is free. We pay taxes. If there is public land that is being used for resources, it is owned by the government, which gets its funding from us...but this gets into the tragedy of the commons, which strays way off topic.

To get back to the fair tax. I don't like the idea of a national sales tax on everyone. I've heard that the feds are floating around the idea of a VAT. I really hope that doesn't happen.

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.

The point here is nothing is free.

That's right.

And al we the public pay for a ton of things out if our taxes, that big business profit from immensely, while whining about taxes.

Like, freeways and bridges to transport their goods. Police, fire departments and emergency response when they fuck up royally by trying to save a buck. (Oil disasters anyone?). A military that goes out and protects THEIR interests, while we foot the bill.

I'm sick and tired of business and the right complaining about "entitlements" when they are making millions and billions form our taxes.

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I think if a logging company, oil company, or any company pulling natural resources or a company that has cattle grazing on public land should pay some sort of fee other than a permit. I'm normally against these types of fees, but I definitely see your point when it comes to public land. Now, when it comes to oil production, I have no idea how much oil the US exports vs. uses domestically, but I feel the oil companies should keep that oil here in the US and export extra. Maybe that is happening now and I just don't know it? I would imagine they make more money selling it overseas, but who knows. If they benefitted from pulling that oil from US land (or US waters), then the US people should benefit from that oil.

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If they benefitted from pulling that oil from US land (or US waters), then the US people should benefit from that oil.

Which f course doesn't happen.

Just like now with medical instance companies, there should be a cap on the profit margin of oil companies. Making record billion dollar profits, while raising the gas prices is unacceptable.

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If graphite tubes and audio cable started sprouting out of the ground it would be a different story.

So, let me get this straight. If somehow graphite tubes and audio cables started sprouting from the ground on publicly owned land you'd be okay with not paying for them, aside from the small harvesting cost of course.

...if graphite tubes and audio cables were in the ground, it would take a good amount of work to get those materials out of the ground, clean them, and THEN make product out of it.

But you'd have no problem with having the rest of fellow Americans subsidize your business.

The point here is nothing is free.

Air.

Daylight.

Love.

Thought.

Gazing at the moon on a fine spring night.

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