Sound of "Lincoln"

[Henchman]

Please don't assume because it was shot in a soundstage that it is easy to get good dial. There may have been super techno cranes and stabilising heads humming and buzzing, noisy lights, zenon arc lights and countless other bg noise, Ironically sometimes your downtown NY locations are easier as they can hide a lot of sins and you have traffic Atmos to hide behind.

Tony

See, if this was a low budget film, I can see where there could have been some issues.

But I just don't see a feature like this, going into a situation with buzzing lights etc.

Again, read the post about Les Miserables, if you want to talk about serious challenges.

Another good example of a period piece where there was little to no ADR, and no BG's to hide behind, is "Gosford Park" by Robert Atman, who would try and not use ADR at all.

S, I still just cannot see what all he fuss is about.

I'm sure it's a fine soundings movie. But lets not get carried away.

I would be infested to know what incredible challenges were faced shooting the movie.

As my experience is, that dialog recorded by a good recordist, on a sound stage, SHOULD sound good.

My expectations in TV are, I'm happy if I get anything that is acceptable.

Usually it ranges from useable to awful. And it's usually no fault of the production mixer.

It's the lack of time they get.

[Tony Johnson]

See, if this was a low budget film, I can see where there could have been some issues.

But I just don't see a feature like this, going into a situation with buzzing lights etc.

Again, read the post about Les Miserables, if you want to talk about serious challenges.

Another good example of a period piece where there was little to no ADR, and no BG's to hide behind, is "Gosford Park" by Robert Atman, who would try and not use ADR at all.

I disagree often the bigger the budget the less they care about noisy lights and crane noise, in my experience if a DP wants to use a techno crane as a tracking device then they will no matter how much you protest or how big the show is.

Yes Les Mis is a fine example but still has nothing to do with budget IMHO. As Simon pointed out that if the director wants good sound then everyone else gets in behind and that's when compromises are made with other departments as Its what the Director wants.

And as you quote Robert Altman another director who loved production sound and not ADR.

Tony

[Henchman]

Ok,now the argument is just getting silly.

You really want to pretend that a big budget movie, shot mostly on a soundstage is going to have a harder time getting better sound than a low budget movie shot on location and on practical sets?

Right......

[old school]

H man, I'd walk some miles in your shoes before I'd comment on your work as a post man. Maybe you should do the same. As for Lincoln, Spielberg is an impatient, major factor in the production process whether he is on stage or not. As you well know all projects are not the same. Let it go amigo.

CrewC

[Wyatt Tuzo]

I work with the Mixer who mixed Michael Clayton. His response when I informed him of this thread: "We couldn't have done it without both the director and DP being sensitive to our needs... It's all comes down to collaboration"

It's easy to lose sight of this, but were often just another cog in the wheel. When all departments are able to pull together to work toward a common goal, then we can really achieve great and lasting art (cinema)

[atheisticmystic]

I would be infested to know what incredible challenges were faced shooting the movie.

This is one of the most beautifully complex and flavorful Freudian Mishaps I've read in quite some time.

Best,

Steven

[Alexander Burstein]

Henchman, it really varies. The challenges aren't always locations which is what your argument seems to lean heavily on. I've been lit out of shots, had noisy cameras or lights, or little time to set up properly to get good sound, all on a sound stage. The list doesn't of issues that come up does not end there.

Some shots may just not work out for whatever reason. But certainly good sound comes from the collaborative effort of a production. And post!

[Marc Wielage]

This is one of the most beautifully complex and flavorful Freudian Mishaps I've read in quite some time.

I'm frequently infested with location sound problems on sets! Is it just me, or are lighting ballasts now 50% louder and "buzzier" than they were 10 years ago? Maybe I'm just more sensitive to it...

[headpooch]

ADR is always the last result.

I will go with a noisy mic, or a lav over ADR almost everytime.

Yes, but ADR is just another post production tool, much like CGI.

Anything that distracts me from the story, whether is a scratchy choker lav or a leafblower, would be better served by dialog replacement. The technology has improved much from the old Italian Hercules movies.

For me, it's all about story.

[Christian Spaeth]

I agree that ADR should be considered to replace scratchy lav-only shots. But I sometimes get the feeling some post audio crews have more of a tendency to get the best out of the dialogue while others pay most attention to the sound design/fx (and therefore have a higher tolerance for not-so-clean production tracks?). I guess it also depends on the kind of film. When they get both right that's when a sound track can come close to perfection.

[Richard Lightstone, CAS]

This is in response to Henchman's example of Robert Altman's "Gosford Park" (2001) as far as use of production dialog recordings over ADR.

I had the honor of working on an Altman film, way, way back in 1978; "Quintet". Bob Gravenor was the Production Mixer.

As was typical of RA's films, everyone is wired, he hated the sight of a boom even visible on the set. This process began after one of his earlier films, "McCabe and Mrs. Miller"(1971).

Jack Cashin developed the 8 track recording system for Altman and Jim Webb was the pioneer who had to mix with the newly developed Stephen's 8 Track recorder.

The system was clunky and wireless microphone technology was no where as good as today. Lion's Gate 8 Track Sound was first used on "California Split" in '74. Jim Webb later passed the torch to Robert Gravenor and then onto John Pritchett who even upscaled it to 24 tracks on "Pret a Porter" ("Ready to Wear") (1994).

So back to Gosford Park. The technology for that film was greatly improved but wireless microphones prevailed with typical Altman's overlapping dialog.

Peter Glossup did an excellant job. Altman is not an easy guy to work for and he will use all the production dialog wether it is good sounding or not. So hats off to the Dialog Editors and the Rerecording Mixers, Robin O'Donoghue and Richard Street.

Ultimately it is a collaboration between Production Sound, Post Sound Editorial and the Rerecording Mixers.

Despite all the incredible technology we have on Production and in Post, even big budget feature films do not make it easy to capture pristine dialog. In fact many of the interiors of Lincoln were not shot on stage. Many were on practical locations and those sets built on the stage had fixed ceiling pieces and no set walls were pulled to accomodate the actors performances.

So I would never assume that production sound's work will be a piece of cake when we have the luxury of working on a professional sound stage (as opposed to a warehouse.)

Now a days it's at least two cameras - wide and tight and little attention or thought paid to the needs of the Sound department. We have to fight for every Gb of recorded dialog and the majority of us excel in what we deliver, despite the entire production working against us.

You (Henchman) have the luxury of the client giving you the time, money and tools to both "fix" and mix. Yes, I know in television it's about 1 - 2 mix days per episode. You guys also perform miracles too.

If you have the opportunity to visit the set of the shows you post, you might be shocked at what the production mixer has to do to get any useable dialog.

I always check in with Sound Editors and visit the Mix when I can, to learn more about what we do well and where we could do better.

We owe it to each other to support our separate but equal crafts. Either way, it's our hands, ears and heart that makes a good mix.

Photo: Stephens 8 Track Portable Recorder of Altman fame.

[Richard Lightstone, CAS]

I apologize in advance for taking this thread in a different direction from my previous post.

Here are two photos from Robert Altman's "Quintet".

The sound cart in the "Sound Trailer". The 16 x 8 Mix desk was designed by Jack Cashin and tested in the field by Jim Webb in Calgary, Alberta, on "Buffalo Bill and the Indians" 1976. Wireless receivers were both Microns and Audio Limited's. If you look between the top shelf with the Nagras and the top of the console you can see the 10 1/2 inch reels on the Stephens Recorder, resting on the shelf behind.

On the set of "Quintet", filmed in Montreal in the original Expo '67 theme building. The set was open to the air, in January and iced over to replicate a frozen planet. L-R Jean Boffety DOP, Paul Newman, Robert Altman and Al Smith 1st AC.