Clients to look out for

[drewstorm]

Hi, I just got stiffed on a shoot where the client refuses to pay after services have already been rendered. I am wondering a few things,

1. What kinds of things can I do at this point.

2. What can I do to avoid this in the future.

3. Is there value in starting a permanent place to post clients who do this so other professionals can refer to it and be warned.

[studiomprd]

Hi, and welcome.

this has been discussed a while back, and though nothing has changed much...

note that there are legal remedies like the state department of Labor (if you were on payroll) or the court system if you invoiced them...

Small claims, and or mechanic's lien. there are also commercial recovery (debt collection) firms. you also have a copyright interest if you are not paid for a work for hire.

verbal contracts are legal, but having it in writing is much better!

there are legal risks to starting and keeping a list generally available to the public.

[wolfvid]

call 695 - see if they care about members or dues

my advice:

small claims court for the equipp up to 7500 in Ca. Hard to collect.

State labor dept. or board. they can issue arrest warrants for nonpayment of labor and will. after a few months the labor bill is doubled and then tripled. they do have teeth, esp. if several people got stiffed.

Osburn knows exactly what to do if he can be bothered.

[jwill]

Heartless c*cks*ckers, there is an energy.... known as kharma... and it does go round and round...believe me , I am 53 years of age and in the biz for 30 of them...seen it and it is awesome!!! JHW

[studiomprd]

" call 695 "

the OP is in Utah, probably not a member, the production was not union, and probably didn't do payroll...

[Eric Toline]

Hi, I just got stiffed on a shoot where the client refuses to pay after services have already been rendered. I am wondering a few things,

1. What kinds of things can I do at this point.

2. What can I do to avoid this in the future.

3. Is there value in starting a permanent place to post clients who do this so other professionals can refer to it and be warned.

Wondering what if any reasons were given for not paying and how long after the job you found out?

Eric

[Marc Wielage]

Hi, I just got stiffed on a shoot where the client refuses to pay after services have already been rendered.

Do you have a valid phone number and address for these people? How many days has it been since the shoot? Can you file a claim in small claims court?

I start getting very antsy after about 60 days, and I start hitting them with phone calls and emails as often as I can. I had a minor dispute with a reality company over the summer where they said, "payment in 30 days." But what that really meant was, "we cut checks only twice a month, on the 1st and on the 15th, so if your bill comes in on the 16th, you get to wait two more weeks." And it also turned out to be 30 business days, which to me was total BS. It's all just an effort to slow payment and hold onto their money longer. I eventually got paid, but I think it was close to two months before I saw an actual check.

There are legal risks for anybody starting a website that bad-mouthed production companies, networks, cable channels, studios, and others who either don't pay or pay very slowly. It might be possible that somebody would post a phony message just to torment the company, or maybe there's more to the dispute than we really know. If a site like that was constructed, it'd have to be an offshore thing in Russia or something, far away from prosecution. I know a few DPs who got stiffed on some shows, but there's not much you can do if it's an LLC that folds up, or an out-of-town company that's difficult to reach.

[RPSharman]

Do you have emails showing the "deal" and do you have evidence of services rendered, like a copy of the recordings?

Even if not "payrolled" you can use dept. of labor to secure minimum wage for documented hours.

Although not in this business, I took an employer to court, with other employees, for unpaid wages. I received a judgement for a couple of thousand dollars, worth the paper it was written on.

Sometimes you just have to mark it as a learning experience, and check with your accountant if the "loss" can somehow be written off on your taxes.

[stephensharrod]

If I don't know them I get it in writing as soon as possible if I know what the job is and for how much. In one instance I had asked to be paid at the end of everyday, because I was given no contract, nothing, just a verbal agreement. Or you can be a real sound douche and withhold the sound from them until you are paid (this is depending on the type of project) Also if they come back to you missing files and you have made back ups then you can bring up the money issue. This are guerrilla tactics but depending on how shady the job is in the first place it could be considered an option.

[Philip Perkins]

I have held audio recordings (and exposed film/video, and rental camera bodies) hostage for payment in my time, but that is kind of a nuclear option. Your legal grounds for doing that are pretty shaky, and you might end up in a very unpleasant situation if the producers get desperate. If you want to keep this client then you have to keep the dispute private, ie be annoying w/ emails and calls. If you don't care about the client you can try to contact THEIR client or funder--they aren't likely to care about you but your call makes the producer look like they aren't taking care of business--makes them look incompetent. I've gotten so I can sort of tell how fast a client is going to pay, by now. Ad agencies and the government are the worst, big payroll companies that deal with all the outside vendors of a major corporation are a close second. Small production companies are usually the best, ironically.

philp

[Christopher Mills]

I use a media collection agent.

http://www.szabo.com/

not perfect, but pretty effective

[Whit Norris]

I use a media collection agent.

http://www.szabo.com/

not perfect, but pretty effective

Chris I used them also many years ago and they were very effective and collected the money.

Whit

[dfisk]

this is part of the reason I stayed away from production sound and stayed in the post world. When I was freelance working on low budget stuff, I would always make sure to get the check before I gave them the final mix. No money. No sound.

[Henchman]

I had a situation when I first moved to LA where a studio owed me money for mixing.

I got the "next Thursday" speech a coupled times.

Then, I let them know if I didn't get paid soon, I would be publicizing the situation on the numerous post boards I am active on.

I got paid that week.

[Philip Perkins]

I agree that public shaming is often your best weapon. In SF all the rental and post houses share info on deadbeats, even if they are arch competitors, ditto with prod sound people.

philp

[Kevin Ward]

Let them know that you will be placing a mechanics (supplier, laborer, or artisan) lean on the finished product.

BTW I am not a lawyer but I have worked with F. Lee Baily.

[Jon Gilbert]

I'm in a similar situation for the first time in nearly 20 years, a client hasn't paid me for an overseas shoot, I'm just about to (beginning of next week) initiate court proceedings against them.

It's a job I really wish I'd never got involved in, the shoot was awful, so to wait this long for payment is a real kick in the nuts, I shall enjoy kicking them back in the nuts with the help of the small claims court.

[studiomprd]

" maybe there's more to the dispute than we really know. "

frequently...

" big payroll companies "

these companies typically pay their payrolls promptly, as required by law, providing the money has been transferred to them.

[Philip Perkins]

" maybe there's more to the dispute than we really know. "

frequently...

" big payroll companies "

these companies typically pay their payrolls promptly, as required by law, providing the money has been transferred to them.

Nope.

philp

[Marc Wielage]

I agree that public shaming is often your best weapon. In SF all the rental and post houses share info on deadbeats, even if they are arch competitors, ditto with prod sound people.

The Hollywood Post Association has a similar deal -- all member post houses share information on billing status with many vendors, including "Slow Payers," "Non-Payment," and "Disputes." I can recall many extremely famous companies being put on C.O.D. with Complete Post in the 1990s, and they'd go absolutely ballistic when we refused to release master tapes until we had a certified check right then and there. I remember one instance where our vault refused to release a tape at noon that was a 2-hour special due to air on NBC that evening. The check showed up in 20 minutes, but I don't think we saw that client again. (Dick Clark Productions, but that was under different management than they are today.)

[bigbenboom]

If you are on a last minute, low budget thing, and they don't offer you paperwork, offer your own. I have a basic contract I bring to every job like that, and have never been stiffed. If they don't sign I don't mix.