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Not another argument about gun control


Laurence

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the "government" (however broadly you define this) will ALWAYS be able to OUT GUN the people. I am totally onboard with the concept that the government needs to be "reminded" that it is there to serve the people, and fostering the element of fear, fear that the government should have for its people, is very important. However, it is very clear to me that trying to acquire an arsenal sufficient to go up against our military is foolish and at the very least totally unrealistic.

Seems like Vietnam and Afghanistan have shown that superior fire power isn't everything.

Sun Tzu, The Art Of War

“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”

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Seems like Vietnam and Afghanistan have shown that superior fire power isn't everything.

Sun Tzu, The Art Of War

“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”

And America isn't anything like any of those countries.

And never will be.

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With news of the latest shootings in the US - this was the editorial from The Observer ( UK national Sunday newspaper) last week.

Gives an indication of how your gunlaws are viewed by many outside the States

Newtown shooting: when it comes to guns and violence, America is like a failed state

The Newtown shooting has inspired a rare moment of national self-reflection about the second amendment

In Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness the character of Kurtz, at his life's end, has a moment of profound lucidity, which prompts his last words: "The horror."

This weekend in the wake of the latest terrible mass shooting in the US, at a primary school in Connecticut, which claimed the lives of 27 innocent people including 20 children, a similar public mood appears to have taken hold, given its most powerful expression in the moving speech by a President Barack Obama on the edge of tears.

It is early days yet but the first indications are that the Newtown massacre has inspired a rare moment of national self-reflection over what is obvious to outside observers: that gun control in the US has failed with horrific consequences.

In a single year – as Obama articulated – the US has also seen mass killings at a Sikh temple, a shopping mall and a cinema.

In America in the past 40 years, a right-driven agenda has argued for the privatisation of the individual's right to own the means of the use of lethal force and driven an extraordinary proliferation of small arms.

While it is clear that the US cannot be described as a failed state, in this one crucial aspect, however, it does demonstrate the traits of one. Indeed, Americans own twice as many guns per head as unstable Yemen, the country that has the second highest rate of firearm ownership on the planet.

At the heart of the issue has been a deliberate effort by the gun lobby and the US right, beginning in earnest in the mid-1970s, to redefine the second amendment of the US constitution and recast a provision designed to provide collective defence in the shape of "well-regulated" militias as a modern and absolute individual right.

That process reached its conclusion when a conservative-dominated supreme court passed two recent rulings affirming this meaning.

What is paradoxical about all this, as the historian Jill Lepore made clear in her excellent examination of gun control for the New Yorker earlier this year, is that the proportion of Americans owning guns has been in a steady and significant decline.

Indeed, between 1985 and 2010 the prevalence of gun ownership has declined from roughly a third of Americans owning a gun to barely 20%. Yet despite that, the US, by number of guns, remains the most heavily armed in the world with one weapon for almost every citizen, not least because those who do own guns now tend to have multiple weapons.

In other words, gun ownership, in political terms, has for long been a minority issue in the US, with those who do own firearms – by and large being white, older and male – monopolising a national debate.

All of which suggests that Obama has been presented with a historic opportunity, should he choose to grasp it. In the outpouring of anguish and horror over the Newtown shooting one is reminded of the public reaction in the UK to Hungerford and Dunblane, which saw two significant and incremental changes to gun laws in the UK, the first banning semi-automatic weapons and the second widespread ownership of handguns.

For most outside observers the answer to America's gun problem appears self-evident. It needs to begin with a reinstatement of the ban on ownership of military assault weapons that have no business being in private hands. A proper federal system of regulation, including background checks registration, and limits on the type and number of weapons an individual can own, would bring the US belatedly into line with other civilised countries, as would a determined push back against state legislation allowing the carrying of concealed weapons in public.

The rate of death from firearm injuries in the US, put very crudely, at more than 30,000 a year exceeds the annual death rate in the present war in Syria. Until the US confronts the reality of its failed policies regarding ownership of firearms it will live in a recurrent nightmare where it is condemned to confront the same horror as it did on Friday at Sandy Hook elementary school.

Will common sense come to your great nation - or will this passion for firearms continue to make us bemused at an insanity that pervades your culture?

Peaceful Greetings to All on this Festive Season and may your New Year be healthy,happy and prosperous.

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And America isn't anything like any of those countries.

And never will be.

Never is a strong word.

Weekly, videos show up on Youtube of the TSA and Police violating civil rights.

An enduring history lesson...

Kent State, May 4 of 1970 when troops opened fire on Americas children.

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Never is a strong word.

Weekly, videos show up on Youtube of the TSA and Police violating civil rights.

An enduring history lesson...

Kent State, May 4 of 1970 when troops opened fire on Americas children.

That's what happens when you vote Republican though.

Jim Rhodes and Ronald Reagan are two governors responsible for the deaths of students.

Republicans don't like people who protest.

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Never is a strong word.

Weekly, videos show up on Youtube of the TSA and Police violating civil rights.

And now you are blaming police?

Who do you call when you see someone trying t break in? The local chart of the Hells Angels?

And as far as the TSA goes. My wife worked at the airport in security. People have no idea how many dangerous weapon and possible bombs are caught, without the public ever knowing.

I have no problem with the TSA. I've flown a lot, and never encountered a problem.

Usually it's people bitching and complaining and refusing to comply, throwing around their civil rights nonsense.

post-1-0-25234800-1356386838_thumb.jpg

Maybe if this girl and her friend had been packing heat they could have fired back at the National Guard? Right, that'll make everything better.

Can you imagine the massacre if students had been armed?

Yay!!!! Lets turn America into Somalia

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That article above sums up my feelings. I honestly thought the country would be more galvanized than it currently is to come into the 21st century in regards to gun control. That offensive statement by the NRA on Friday and various comments by my American friends on facebook have me doubting things....

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There were four mass killing attempts last week. Only one made the news because it helped the agreed upon media narrative.

  1. Oregon. NOT a gun free zone. Shooter confronted by permit holder. Shooter commits suicide. Only a few casualties.

  2. Texas. NOT a gun free zone. Shooter killed immediately by off duty cop. Only a few casualties.

  3. Connecticut. GUN FREE ZONE. Shooters kills until the police arrive. Suicide. 26 dead.

  4. China. GUN FREE COUNTRY. A guy with a KNIFE stabs 22 children.

And here is the nail in the coffin for Gun Free Zones. Over the last fifty years, with only one single exception (Gabby Giffords), every single mass shooting event with more than four casualties has taken place in a place where guns were supposedly not allowed.

" Only because of the easy availability of guns in near-bye jurisdictions. "

that's bullCRAP... You cannot n legally obtain (buy) a firearm in a jurisdiction (state) that you are not a resident of (more ID than just a DL is required! --by existing Federal laws.)

" Why do private owners need 10, 30 and 100 bullet clips? Leave those big boys to the military, "

why do the police need them ?

" Understand the convenience, but it's not worth it. "

it's not just a convenience, it is a right. ever think about just how much free speech is enough for anyuone ??

"There are those who refuse to accept facts as proof, and go by the old "I believe". "

whose "facts" ?? whose "beliefs"?? whose "common sense" ??

" Apparently if you don't cough up on the forced buy back the State Police will be coming to the door

of registered owners to seize their guns."

That sounds like what Hitler did, except for the buy-back part

"The forced buy back and confiscation most likely is only going to effect legit guns owners that passed police

background checks as I am pretty sure most illegal gun owners wont be volunteering. "

"Perhaps it was true in 1776, "

and for Hitler in the 1930's... and for Qaddafi, et al into the 21st century...

" the "government" (however broadly you define this) will ALWAYS be able to OUT GUN the people. "

except that this has been dis proven even in recent years in places like the middle-East... of course, we usually find the USA arming one side, or the other ... --and sometimes both sides! and note " I don't seem to see theme having terribly quick and great success fighting gorilla forces in distant countries, superior firepower or no. " and " Seems like Vietnam and Afghanistan have shown that superior fire power isn't everything. " to mention a few biggies, plus Egypt, Libya, Syria, Somalia, and the rest...

" And never will be. " sez who..?? "the TSA and Police violating civil rights....Kent State, May 4 of 1970 when USA troops opened fire on Americas children. "

" A lot of shooting ranges make you "join" the NRA to shoot there to bolster the membership numbers that they "speak for". "

more bullCRAP, though some ranges are actually part of gun clubs, so memberships may be required to patronize.

" Perhaps your politicians should consider banning cars, booze, cigarettes etc. "

Sen. Michael Crapo, R.-Idaho, was arrested in Virginia early Sunday morning and charged with driving under the influence, Crapo, a Mormon who has been a bishop in the church for decades, has said before in interviews that he doesn't drink alcohol, consistent with his church's doctrine.

"Remember: bad guys who drive drunk can only be stopped by good guys who drive drunk."

" Even after the ban took effect, it was not difficult for someone to get their hands on an assault weapon or high-capacity magazine. "

as a practical matter, all it did was keep the prices higher!

" Indeed, as soon as Congress began working on the law, manufacturers boosted production of weapons and magazines in anticipation of higher prices. "

" Colt is working overtime to make gobs of these guns after all this free press. "

the manufacturers will probably not build to stockpile (the ban could be different than last time), and dealers won't buy to stockpile, either, what would they do if they suddenly weren't allowed to sell them (hint, they would obey the law!)

"That is the law I wish were passed. "

what part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand ?

" there has been talk of even banning 12 round pistol magazines "

but why 12 ?? --actually 10 is usually mentioned, but why 10 ??

many of today's pistols (especially all the ones popular with police agencies) can hold ~15 rounds in the clip. I don't really care for the weight of that many rounds, but it is much easier (oh-oh, convenience, again) to put 9-10 rounds into a dangerous higher capacity magazine than to push them into the restricted versions required by some jurisdictions...

" wished that microstamping was the law. "

more "feel-good" junk science; talk about loopholes, besides easily obscuring the stamp, there are those millions of guns without it...

" as dangerous with your words as a lunatic with a firearm. "

see, we are going to need some common sense limits on free speech!

" Countries don't NEED nuclear weapons or WMD,s... But we are quick to infringe on other countries rights to have them. "

just a different version of the SBD game (and usa insists on having the biggest!)

" good luck rounding them up. "

when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns....

Oh, and the Government...

It is really easy to be a police state when the citizens are unarmed!

" you are no match for professional law enforcement or military. How many idiots in Waco Texas or the Idaho backwoods discovered that tidbit a little too late. " ... or the folks taking care of Elian Gonzalez

" However, since 9-11 things have changed dramatically on privacy and liberty in our country.

The second amendment to our constitution was born out of this fear of government. "

maybe we need to reevaluate the right to worship ... The founding fathers were all Christians, and I'm sure that they must have meant freedom to worship in any Christian faith... and after all, even the Pledge of Allegiance says we are a "nation, under God"...(meaning, of course, the Christian God!)

" But these are the movies that we are putting out. "

lets see... Movies, episodes, series' postponed, reedited, even rewritten and reshot...

Within 48 hours of the Sandy Hook shooting, Paramount reviewed its marketing materials for Tom Cruise starrer Jack Reacher. The movie, which opened Friday, begins with a sniper picking off victims on a city street. Among other tweaks, the studio removed a scene from television spots showing Cruise’s character firing a semi-automatic weapon.

Warner Bros.' period cop-mob movie Gangster Squad, which opens Jan. 11, features a poster showing Sean Penn's character holding a machine gun, and Josh Brolin's character is holding a handgun. And some NFL football viewers complained online about a television spot for Gangster Squad that ran repeatedly the Sunday following Sandy Hook because of a shoot-out scene. The movie was already delayed once -- after the July theater massacre during a midnight screening of The Dark Knight Rises. The delay allowed the filmmakers to cut a scene of a shooting inside a theater and replace it with a gunfight in Los Angeles' Chinatown neighborhood.

Lionsgate's Arnold Schwarzenegger action pic The Last Stand, opening Jan. 18, is even more intense in terms of its weaponry. According to the website Internet Movie Firearms Database, the movie features 10 different firearms, including a machine gun, assault rifles and a machine gun.

In the poster, Schwarzenegger is holding a massive Vickers machine gun.

Other January films with guns featured prominently in marketing materials include New Regency's Broken City, starring Mark Wahlberg as a former cop who uncovers a political scandal involving the city's mayor, played by Russell Crowe. The movie, opening Jan. 18, isn't as heavy on weapons as other January films.

FilmDistrict's R-rated crime thriller Parker has Jason Statham playing a gun-toting professional thief who exacts revenge on those who betray him. He stars opposite Jennifer Lopez in the film, which opens Jan. 22.

In Paramount's action fantasy Hansel & Gretel: Witch Hunters, Hansel (Jeremy Renner) and Gretel (Gemma Arterton) are heavily armed witch hunters. The siblings are grown up now, and expert hunters. The R-rated movie opens Jan. 25.

" Who do you call when you see someone trying t break in? "

Remington ?? Smith and Wesson ?

" as far as the TSA goes. "

yes, they pretty well speed far beyond that "civil rights...nonsense" protection against search and seizure without a warrent and proper due process...

" People have no idea how many dangerous weapon and possible bombs are caught, "

ABC news (Jake Trapper, soon to be on CNN) seems to be finding out a lot of electronics stuff are being caught, too

" Usually it's people bitching and complaining and refusing to comply, throwing around their civil rights nonsense. "

they are your civil rights, too...

If you don't want them...

" I mean it quiet on the set! "

I said I need to get room tone!

" I wonder if in an alternate universe somewhere professional soldiers are having a discussion about pro audio gear? "

going on now on several police forums.

Edited by studiomprd
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I wonder if in an alternate universe somewhere professional soldiers are having a discussion about pro audio gear?

Alistair

O0

LMAO! Merry Christmas guys!

I hope Santa is good to you all..

BTW, After the new year, the government will be coming by to collect all multitrack recorders. You don't need more than two channels! Devas, 788t, Nomads, and the Cantar will no longer be legal for the civilian sound mixer. Nagra IVS will be fine.

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Let's face it guys, no matter how well armed you are, you are no match for professional law enforcement

North Hollywood bank robbery anyone? The cops were completely out-gunned and had to get guns on loan from a local gun shop in order to fight back.

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post-1-0-25234800-1356386838_thumb.jpg

Maybe if this girl and her friend had been packing heat they could have fired back at the National Guard? Right, that'll make everything better.

It's hard to say how that tragedy would have played out differently if more folks could have defended themselves.

Sadly we don't have Neil Young, Joe Walsh, and Steve Miller writing songs about anti-violence anymore. But we do have TI, 50 Cent, and Lil Wayne!

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"That is the law I wish were passed. "

what part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand ?

In that case, why are there any rules? Any civilian should be allowed to own anything falling under the classification "firearm" by this logic. That would make a lovely society wouldn't it? ::)

Tell me, what kind of small-arms were available when the constitution was written? Certainly not ones capable of any of the mass murders this country has endured over the last 20 years. In fact, production of semi-automatic rifles didn't even occur until roughly 100 years after the US constitution was written. Those that wrote the constitution couldn't even imagine the firepower available on the civilian market today.

This blatant disregard of how things were as opposed to how things are is a huge problem.

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" Any civilian should be allowed... "

pretty much...

just like "free speech" there are a few, and reasonable exceptions ...

as long as you retain your civil rights --felons and mentally ill persons lose many of their rights, as it should be.

over the last ~20 years, most states have, successfully, come to realize that.

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Usually it's people bitching and complaining and refusing to comply, throwing around their civil rights nonsense.

wait wait wait here...civil rights nonsense? That is a very strong statement there. Civil rights are not nonsense, and the supreme court has already ruled that you can't just search people without probably cause. Every time we go to the airport and get scanned or groped we are having our civil rights violated. That is a BIG deal. I almost got arrested at the San Diego airport because I refused the body scanner and wanted to video record them giving me a pat down. They would not let me video record them, and they called the police and a bunch of TSA people surrounded me. They told me I was not allowed to video record, or live stream them felling me up.

In regards to having guns to fight against the government. Every single military family member and friend I've talked to this said if they were ordered to fire upon US citizens, they would arrest the officer giving that order. Most military folks would not attack the citizens, and would most likely turn their weapons on the people occupying the capitol building.

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" supreme court has already ruled that you can't just search people without probably cause. "

one of the really bad (and to me scary) trends has been requiring citizens to give up their rights in order to have the privileges of citizenship...

as citizens we are entitled to all, the rights and privileges of out country.

no trading, no wheeling and dealing allowed...

that would be another tedious thread...

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wait wait wait here...civil rights nonsense? That is a very strong statement there. Civil rights are not nonsense, and the supreme court has already ruled that you can't just search people without probably cause. Every time we go to the airport and get scanned or groped we are having our civil rights violated. That is a BIG deal. I almost got arrested at the San Diego airport because I refused the body scanner and wanted to video record them giving me a pat down. They would not let me video record them, and they called the police and a bunch of TSA people surrounded me. They told me I was not allowed to video record, or live stream them felling me up.

In regards to having guns to fight against the government. Every single military family member and friend I've talked to this said if they were ordered to fire upon US citizens, they would arrest the officer giving that order. Most military folks would not attack the citizens, and would most likely turn their weapons on the people occupying the capitol building.

You have every right to NOT take a plane.

Way did you refuse to be scanned? It's so silly.

What did you have to hide?

Do you kick up a fuss going to concerts and sporting events as well?

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Who do you call when you see someone trying t break in? The local chart of the Hells Angels?

Keep in mind some people don't live in a city.

The north end of the county where I live has maybe one cop that covers 100's of square miles.

You would be foolish to rely on the police showing up in a timely manor.

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Maybe if this girl and her friend had been packing heat they could have fired back at the National Guard? Right, that'll make everything better.

The point I was trying to make and apparently failed at was the dangers of saying "This could never happen in America".

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