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Not another argument about gun control


Laurence

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the "Clinton Gun Ban", or any of the state gun bans currently around...

None of which come close my suggestions.

" They're a neutered version of a weapon "

and thus, not assault weapons, but sporting versions.

Receiver, barrel, trigger assembly, intermediate cartridge, magazine system....all from an assault rifle designed for killing/wounding soldiers on the battlefield. Trivial modifications don't change any of this.

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I've been resisting posting in this thread.

Very divisive issue and it doesn't seem like anyone really wants to change their opinion, regardless of facts.

But there is one argument that I really, truly don't understand. And I just want to make it clear, I'm not asking this to try and fan the flames, I would just like to hear an explanation.

I don't understand the logic that "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"

Those kids in Sandy Hook were killed by bullets. I have yet to meet anyone who can shoot a bullet from there ass (or any other part of there body for that matter) so I would have to say guns killed those kids.

I would think that an extrapolation of that logic could make the argument that "Nukes don't kill people, people kill people."

If that is true then why is the United States so adamant about keeping Iran from getting Nukes ? Heck, why can't I go buy a nuke in case I need to defend myself from my own government ? Ok, maybe a Nuke would be out of my price range. A couple of hellfire missiles instead.

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I've been resisting posting in this thread.

Very divisive issue and it doesn't seem like anyone really wants to change their opinion, regardless of facts.

But there is one argument that I really, truly don't understand. And I just want to make it clear, I'm not asking this to try and fan the flames, I would just like to hear an explanation.

I don't understand the logic that "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"

Those kids in Sandy Hook were killed by bullets. I have yet to meet anyone who can shoot a bullet from there ass (or any other part of there body for that matter) so I would have to say guns killed those kids.

I would think that an extrapolation of that logic could make the argument that "Nukes don't kill people, people kill people."

If that is true then why is the United States so adamant about keeping Iran from getting Nukes ? Heck, why can't I go buy a nuke in case I need to defend myself from my own government ? Ok, maybe a Nuke would be out of my price range. A couple of hellfire missiles instead.

When it comes to nukes, I think the Govt. is afraid that Iran won't 'use them responsibly' - that is, to not use them at all (or at least not on the US).

For precisely the same reason, background checks are undertaken on purchasing a firearm (or at least should be), but this doesn't appear to greatly affect the proliferation of weapons...

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Look up the history of the use of atom bombs on Japan in 1945 and you'll hopefully understand the reasons why it was done.

Eric

There are some, including Eisenhower, who said it was unnecessary.

http://teacher.scholastic.com/scholasticnews/indepth/upfront/debate/index.asp?article=0514

Remember. Both targets were purely civilian, and had no military advantage at all.

As incensed as we are about Pearl Harbour, a major military target, Especially because if the number of ships there like sitting ducks. You can imagine the outrage of Americans, had it been a purely civilian city that had been bombed.

Remember how we reacted to 9/11?

Think about if that had been a nuclear attack on New York.

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Whatever reason Eric, still, USA is the only country to ever have used them in warfare. It's off topic though and I'm sorry for that.

It just seems a bit odd to me (looking from the outside) that the one country who actually has killed people with a nuke, can decide what other countries get to have them. Why not just decide no one gets them? :/

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I have to say I don't really care about gun control right now. It's side tracked alot of people in this country right now, and there are much more important things that need to be dealt with. Gun control isn't going to affect the current fiscal situation of this country.

But I must say that gun control in a country whose govt doesn't really have it's citizens well being in mind when making laws scares the crap out of me. Not that I believe that it would happen in America, but Hitler's Germany used gun control to subdue it's own population. They made more and more regulations until they simply outlawed owning guns. Then the SS simply looked at the registered gun owners and told them to throw their guns in the street. If they said, "no", they were killed, if they had a gun that was not registered they were killed. All of the guns thrown into the street were run over by tanks to destroy them.

This was all done legally within the govt. I know it seems extreme, but considering what our govt has done in the past I can't put it past them. Anything is possible. We all learn from something from history, it's just a matter of how we apply it.

I also had a conversation with the cam op I was working with when the Conn. shooting happened. He made a point about Isreal (He's Isreali). You have people carrying guns all day long. Women carrying assualt rifles to the grocery store. A rifle slung on their shoulder and baby in their arms. They don't have people shooting eachother up like what happens in the US. Yet they have one the highest per capita gun owner ship rates as well. Maybe it's because of the mandatory duty in the armed forces in Israel that teaches them better gun safety, and respect.

I guess the gun on the table hasn't shot anyone yet, but an unloaded gun locked in a safe that only the registered owner has the ability to open is even more safe. The only thing safer is to not have the guns at all, but that will never happen, and I'm not so sure I want to give up my ability to defend myself from my corrupt govt. Yes my govt. ( Something I feel the 2nd ammendment was meant for amongst other reasons). I fear them more than my fellow Americans.

If the English Govt wasn't being oppressive we'd all probably still be English.

I grew up in an area where just about every family I knew owned a gun. Most guns were for the purpose of hunting, some were for protection. I also live in the same area where the Pizza delivery murders happened. I actually knew people who were involved in it. Particularly the person who stole the guns. The guns used were not assault rifles if I remember correctly. (Don't quote me on that)

If you look at cases like that than what difference would banning assault rifles have made. If my memory serves me correctly I think there was actually an assualt rifle ban in NJ at the time. So the law did nothing.

I think it really comes down to strict laws on the acquisition of the gun, proper education of gun safety including a thorough understanding of every aspect of the gun, and a requirement to safely lock the guns. Maybe a safety inspection of the safe would be required. Or as someone else said that maybe the rifles would need to be stored at a facility. If yo want to own an assault rifle you can, but it must stored at a facility in which it remains locked. Could be a lucrative business considering all of the guns in this country. Non assault rifles could be kept at home under proper lock and key, no exceptions. You only take it out for hunting or target practice and put it back under lock and key when done. No exceptions.

But ultimately it is a matter of the people at hand. It wouldn't surprise me to see this happening more and more with the way things are going. Americans are seriously stressed, and unfortunately some of us just don't know how to deal with it. We're disconnected from eachother, over worked and under payed, and are quite frankly becoming inhuman and incapable of functioning in society. Look at all these sound mixers spending their time writing on some forum on the internet, rather than going out and making contact with your fellow neighbors. Heh heh.

Cheers Everyone, try to have a happy New Year!

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There are some, including Eisenhower, who said it was unnecessary.

http://teacher.schol...sp?article=0514

Remember. Both targets were purely civilian, and had no military advantage at all.

As incensed as we are about Pearl Harbour, a major military target, Especially because if the number of ships there like sitting ducks. You can imagine the outrage of Americans, had it been a purely civilian city that had been bombed.

...and to add to this..the attack on Pearl Harbor could have been much much worse, and the attack was in response to US sanctions put on Japan. There is a great book called "The Last Zero Fighter" that has interviews with Japanese pilots, and one pilot says that after they finished their attack and were on their way back to Japan, none of the people on his ship were celebrating. They were deeply upset at what they had done, and were worried about the US response.

I think dropping of the atomic bombs on civilian targets was very disturbing, in my opinion, but I think there is more to it than just killing people. Dropping two of them showed the world that the US has these incredibly devastating weapons and the US will use them..oh, and since we dropped two that means we have more. Thankfully the US has not used them since.

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Just some reminders I have had to think about myself....

I think it's pretty safe to say that:

A) everyone here is a pretty nice person

B- everyone here is a brother or sister to one another in regards to our profession

C) there are pretty strong opinions on this subject

D) Folks are pretty entrenched in their beliefs

E) Vilifying one another does none of us any good

F) We all should stay centered in regards to this conversation an treat each one of us as family... (I have struggled with this)

G) respect and try to understand the opposing viewpoint.

H) Stay friendly.....

Lets continue.... shall we?

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...and to add to this..the attack on Pearl Harbor could have been much much worse, and the attack was in response to US sanctions put on Japan. There is a great book called "The Last Zero Fighter" that has interviews with Japanese pilots, and one pilot says that after they finished their attack and were on their way back to Japan, none of the people on his ship were celebrating. They were deeply upset at what they had done, and were worried about the US response.

I think dropping of the atomic bombs on civilian targets was very disturbing, in my opinion, but I think there is more to it than just killing people. Dropping two of them showed the world that the US has these incredibly devastating weapons and the US will use them..oh, and since we dropped two that means we have more. Thankfully the US has not used them since.

We dropped two because the Japaneese refused to surrender.... and to show Russia that we had more than one...

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However, USA is the only country ever to actually have used nuclear weapons in warfare. Which is unnerving.

One atomic bomb on a symbolic target like Mount Fuji would have probably got the point across, but even admitting that I'd say that, as tragic as the use of nuclear weapons on Japan was it has probably saved millions of lives in the years since. The shear horror of its use and aftermath was the biggest reason, I believe, why nobody has had the guts to use one since.

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but even admitting that I'd say that, as tragic as the use of nuclear weapons on Japan was it has probably saved millions of lives in the years since. The shear horror of its use and aftermath was the biggest reason, I believe, why nobody has had the guts to use one since.

Is this a validation from you of "Peace Through Superior Firepower"? :)

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