Another TC question... this time regarding 24p fake or real...

[pvanstry]

SInce the other topic was quite successful, i have some more stuff to ask...

I work with a lot of different camera ( like all of us ) and a lot of camera ops. It is nearly impossible to get the same story twice, even about the same camera, about which camera does true 24fps. A lot of camera i work with actually do 23.98fps even when set to 24fps. Because i don't always have the time to verify, and since i do a lot of single system, i would like to compile a list according to our common knowledge about specific cameras and if possible there settings. Let's begin with a list of camera and then you could chime in and let us know which one actually does or doesn't do true 24fps.

Canon C300

Canon 5d MkIII

Sony F3

Sony NS700

Sony F900R

Panasonic HDX900

Panasonic HPX2700

Sony EX1 and EX3

Arri Alexa

THis should get us started.

SO far my mean of testing this is by taking the TC out of the Camera and hooking it to my Sound Devices 788, open the TC jam window and look at the incoming TC value and Framerate. Is it safe and foolproof, still need to call SD about it but feeling pretty safe it is.

Thank you

[Marc Wielage]

Several of them are capable of shooting at 24.00fps and 23.98fps. Know the difference, read the camera manual prior to the shoot, do a workflow test, and there will generally be no problems.

A simple Google search will locate each of these manuals (for free).

[Philip Perkins]

SInce the other topic was quite successful, i have some more stuff to ask...

I work with a lot of different camera ( like all of us ) and a lot of camera ops. It is nearly impossible to get the same story twice, even about the same camera, about which camera does true 24fps. A lot of camera i work with actually do 23.98fps even when set to 24fps. Because i don't always have the time to verify, and since i do a lot of single system, i would like to compile a list according to our common knowledge about specific cameras and if possible there settings. Let's begin with a list of camera and then you could chime in and let us know which one actually does or doesn't do true 24fps.

Canon C300

Canon 5d MkIII

Sony F3

Sony NS700

Sony F900R

Panasonic HDX900

Panasonic HPX2700

Sony EX1 and EX3

Arri Alexa

THis should get us started.

SO far my mean of testing this is by taking the TC out of the Camera and hooking it to my Sound Devices 788, open the TC jam window and look at the incoming TC value and Framerate. Is it safe and foolproof, still need to call SD about it but feeling pretty safe it is.

Thank you

Canon C300 23.98=23.98

Canon 5d MkIII 24 = 23.98

Sony F3 23.98=23.98

Sony NS700 ? ? ?

Sony F900R 23.98=23.98

Panasonic HDX900 24=23.98 but wants ext TC @ 29.97 (check me on this, it's been awhile)

Panasonic HPX2700 24=23.98 but wants ext TC @ 29.97 " " " "

Sony EX1 and EX3 23.98=23.98

Arri Alexa 23.98=23.98

philp

[Marc Wielage]

Note that the Canon C300 can do true 24.00fps -- page 55 of the manual.

The Arri Alexa can also do true 24.00fps -- page 51 of the manual.

In general, I think it's a very bad idea to shoot at 24.00fps, but that's a decision that needs to be made by the post supervisor and/or editor.

[Jack Norflus]

Panasonic HDX900 24=23.98 but wants ext TC @ 29.97 (check me on this, it's been awhile)

Panasonic HPX2700 24=23.98 but wants ext TC @ 29.97 " " " "

As far as I know all Panasonic's records at 29.97

[Philip Perkins]

Note that the Canon C300 can do true 24.00fps -- page 55 of the manual.

The Arri Alexa can also do true 24.00fps -- page 51 of the manual.

In general, I think it's a very bad idea to shoot at 24.00fps, but that's a decision that needs to be made by the post supervisor and/or editor.

Right--but for us the question is usually "does 24=24 and 23.98=23.98" often answered by a blank look from the camera dept..

philp

[ccsnd]

As far as I know all Panasonic's records at 29.97

[Philip Perkins]

As far as I know all Panasonic's records at 29.97

I think you're right but the Varicams (most recent Panny I worked with) can call what it is doing "24", ie the recording is flagged as being 23.98 even though the camera won't take ext TC at 23.98 (but will jam to it). Ext TC (as from a Lock/Buddy) has to be 29.97.

philp

[Joe Finlan]

read the camera manual prior to the shoot

...because you can be guaranteed that the cameraman didn't.

[dominiquegreffard]

Good job pascal on another informative thread! The canon 5d 24=23.98 is a cause of many misunderstandings. Finalement là le tc... Euh.. c est trop poreux!

[ccsnd]

the original firmware for the 5d was actually true 24. a firmware update changed it to 23.976.

It's possible a 5d could be at 24

[Philip Perkins]

the original firmware for the 5d was actually true 24. a firmware update changed it to 23.976.

It's possible a 5d could be at 24

I guess, but that 24=24 thing was a few years ago now, at least for cameras sold in the USA. It would have to have been one of the original run of 5D mkIIs and still have its original firmware. I haven't run into a 5D with that firmware in at least 2 years now, but with someone's personal camera (ie not a rental) anything is possible. Good to ask in any case.

philp

[Marc Wielage]

Right--but for us the question is usually "does 24=24 and 23.98=23.98" often answered by a blank look from the camera dept..

Oh, I've seen that look before. Part of my problem is I know way too much about the camera department, and they know zero about sound and timecode. I just keep my mouth shut and push the button.

Phil above is right that Canon corrected that 24.00/23.98 problem with the EOS-5D (and I think the 7D) over a year ago, so one hopes they're on the current software revision. I have sent people to the Canon software update site before just to make sure they're running the latest & greatest firmware:

http://www.usa.canon...versAndSoftware

If nothing else, it gives them manual audio gain on both cameras, which is nice for a scratch track.

[BAB414]

As far as I know all Panasonic's records at 29.97

I shot a film at 23.98 on the HVX...

And wasn't the DVX one of the first digital 23.98 cameras? (though Standard def)

[Philip Perkins]

I shot a film at 23.98 on the HVX...

And wasn't the DVX one of the first digital 23.98 cameras? (though Standard def)

Me too, with the camera doing its pulldown thing. But neither of those cams could take ext sync or TC so it's kind of moot.

philp

[BAB414]

I forgot to mention the AF 100 as well, but I think it only has TC out.

[Philip Perkins]

I forgot to mention the AF 100 as well, but I think it only has TC out.

I've been jamming AF100s--when you are in the TC menu the composite video output jack becomes a TC input, and the camera will jam to it. But as soon as you exit that menu that jack reverts to being a video out, so you can't put a Lock-Bud on the camera. And any time you power down or change frame rates it loses its TC mind and you have to rejam.

philp

[Rob Lewis]

Yes the AF100 is a jam only camera does not output or accept continuous time code. Confirming what Philip said. Can only use Time of day code for multi AF100 shoots or double system. Rec run NG unsells single system to camera.

All Panasonic wants to see 29.97 at the TC in. NFL Films shoots Panny P2 now at 24P mandating 29.97ndf with a sync box.

Rob

[videojc]

I loved this question and am still confused. I am using my Sony EX3 and the other DP on the job is using a Canon C300 and a Canon C100. He will be shooting 1080 at 23.98p. The closest setting on my EX3 is 1080 HQ 24p. There is no 23.98 setting on my EX3 but as far as I know even though the setup menu says 24p, it is actually recording at 23.98 so it should be the same as what the man with the Canon cams is shooting.  Am I correct, ?? Thanks

[edward chick]

Yes, the EX3 at 24p is recording at 23.98 or 23.976 in Sony speak. 

[gamaufvisuals]

Nikon D800 or D810 24p (23.976 fps) 

[John Blankenship]

On 3/20/2016 at 2:46 PM, videojc said:

I loved this question and am still confused. I am using my Sony EX3 and the other DP on the job is using a Canon C300 and a Canon C100. He will be shooting 1080 at 23.98p. The closest setting on my EX3 is 1080 HQ 24p. There is no 23.98 setting on my EX3 but as far as I know even though the setup menu says 24p, it is actually recording at 23.98 so it should be the same as what the man with the Canon cams is shooting.  Am I correct, ?? Thanks

Be prepared to clap sticks, and reference audio on each cam will help post as the C100 does not jam to external time code (no time code I/O).

[hiro nakamura]

5D  24 for sure is 23.98. 

Fucked it up twice, it's all from DP s mouths, "24! No problem !" Then got problem! 

23.98

[Tom Visser]

I think the history of "24p" should be brought to light - in that it is an abbreviation for 1080/24p or 720/24p, etc... which are HDTV standards, as are 1080/60i, 1080/30p, etc...  These consumer labels are of course are actually all simplifications of 23.976, 29.97, or 59.94 as it would be unreasonable to account for the cycle frequency differential with respect AC cycle / motor speed differences.  When the first prosumer cameras came out to support the new consumer HD standards, they often adopted the same consumer nomenclatures, but 24p never meant 24fps nor should it ever... nor is there a "true 24p" as it becomes an issue of mixing terms and standards between consumer and professional terms.  If you ever see "24p" it should mean 23.976 and nothing but.  If you mean to say 24fps, then say that, and don't use the term 24p.

...and the consumer standard also does not an never did note frames per second, it has always referred to fields per second.  So 24p mean 23.976 progressive fields per second versus 60i which is 59.94 interlaced fields per second.

[John Blankenship]

Well stated, Tom.

And one should never assume.  Just when you think it's safe (cue forbodding horror film music)... some production... for some unknown reason... probably based on what someone read on the internet somewhere... will decide that they are shooting 24fps ("after all," they reason, "haven't films in the U.S. always been shot at that frame rate").

It pays to double check.

An email I received two days ago stated, " We are shooting on a Red at 24fps." You can bet my follow-up email was immediate, which resulted in my client admitting Red-facedly (pun alert) that he meant 23.976fps.