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Timecode buddy got it backwards!


ChrisH

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... and there you have it! Thanks for the update Richard!

It completely makes sense that it was designed to tackle RECRUN systems, which can be more of a mess than free run.

I think here is the crux of the confusion and much of the criticism: the system was designed to be an elegant solution for timecode distribution when working in REC-RUN. Even though it is true that the people who are using TC Buddy for their jobs (that are not REC-RUN) have managed to figure out an acceptable procedure and method to do this, it did not stop the valid and somewhat critical assessment of the product that we have had here. Bottom line, MOST jobs to my knowledge are not using REC-RUN and this includes all forms of jobs from ENG bag work, reality shows, big feature movies, etc. It looks as if TC Buddy company has been looking into all of this, listening to those who are already using it (and a whole host of others who aren't using it but still want to talk about it) and are going to be introducing some new items in their system to address these issues.

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Thanks for the update Richard. I've been waiting since the summer for more info on the product line update. I was told to keep my eyes open at IBC, but I didn't hear or see anything new. I was wondering if the idea got abandoned altogether.

I'm looking forward to integrating the TC Buddy system next year.

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It depends on who you work for. I spent 6 months last year working for a company that was all Rec-Run in their workflow. I had previously worked for them for about a year, and most of the work was mixer feeding audio to a camera. They started doing local news years and years ago and turned into a production company and for whatever reason never changed the workflow. They really had never done a free run job in their post department, so it was a mess. Their camera ops didn't like free run because to them the moving numbers in the eyepiece meant they were rolling (we had a few double tap issues). That's just what they got used to seeing after years of doing it that way.

They did send us two of those little Ambient TC-TRX devices that were really cool (not sure why we didn't get 3 if I was rolling sound). Nowhere near the features of the TCB, but interesting in their own way.

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"It depends on who you work for. I spent 6 months last year working for a company that was all Rec-Run in their workflow. I had previously worked for them for about a year, and most of the work was mixer feeding audio to a camera."

If you're not doing double system, REC-RUN is fine but also there is no need for ANY timecode distribution (whether it is with Ambient, Denecke, Zaxcom, TC Buddy, whatever) so its not an issue. If you are doing double system and they insist on continuing with REC-RUN for the reasons you state (dubious at best when you mention things like they don't like seeing running code in the eyepiece!) then you have to do what you have to do.

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I agree with Chris' sentiments, and I don't see where he puts down people who work on run-n-gun shoots.

...

Prior to his changing it, Chris' original post had that tone, as for instance, he classified the shows he works on as being "real" productions. It read as a bit of a slap in the face to anyone not working on major motion pictures.

I'm glad he updated his original post and certainly accept his clarification and statement of good intentions.

I'm doing more cart-based productions these days than run-n-gun, and my time code needs are in line with Chris', but I chose to offer him some feedback on how his original post came across -- no intent for any ill will was intended.

(I don't want to make this an issue -- as it certainly isn't -- but I just wanted to clarify in respect to Marc's post.)

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" Does the fact that they did it this way annoy anyone else? "

annoy ?? not really...

I recall having this discussion with them at NAB whenthey introduced the products...

as others have pointed out, they designed, and built it for a different subset of the production sound market...

they have been working on expanding the appeal of their stuff to other subsets...

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I'd like to pre-order (2) mini Rx units and the new "Top Secret" Wi-Fi TC Buddy Slate that is also under development!!

I still dream of an open-source, unified solution that will transmit audio timecode, picture timecode, scene and take numbers to slate, camera, sound department, video assist, and script supervisor -- to all models of equipment regardless of manufacturer.

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I still dream of an open-source, unified solution that will transmit audio timecode, picture timecode, scene and take numbers to slate, camera, sound department, video assist, and script supervisor -- to all models of equipment regardless of manufacturer.

That seems to be what Ambient are trying to do with ACN (apart from the open source bit)

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And what was their considered reply?

Well... the assumption that your needs are greater or more valid than those who do not shoot "features and episodic TV" will not be welcomed by many members of this forum. While I do not work on features, I work on episodic TV and have found that the TCB system works extremely successfully (with Alexa, Red etc.).

While I agree with you that the naming system employed by Timecode Systems for the TCB units could be better (I would have preferred the 'Master' unit to be called something like the 'Transceiver') I do not agree that they have it "backwards". One relevant point I feel is worth mentioning is that Timecode Systems are marketing the TCB system to a global market and not just the US. My point being that, for example, the UK market (where I am based) works very differently to the Union market that you have Chris - I am not saying better or worse just different. As such, recordists in the UK can sometimes find themselves working on scripted cart-based period dramas followed by an ENG style record-in-the-bag show the next. So the type of gear we require often needs to work well across both genres. In my experience, the shows that require the most demanding timecode setups are often not cart-based (although a 1u mount would be a nice edition to the TCB accessory collection).

Your desire for a receiver only TCB unit echoes the wishes of many TCB users including myself. However I am not looking for a cheap solution. There are many cheap timecode solutions out there (discussed at length within this forum) but personally I'm happy to pay for a rock-solid solution. We've covered the issue of cost before in a previous thread but essentially the TCB WIFI units are only marginally more expensive than traditional TC boxes from Ambient and the like which do not have the same feature set so this isn't really an argument in my eyes... but I understand you want cheap!

By the fact that you say "The idea that cameras are transmitting timecode to me makes me cringe" I assume you are currently using a TCB system? Have you not considered reconfiguring your setup so that you are transmitting the "master" timecode to the cameras as you so desire? By having a TCB TX (or 'WIFI master' setup as a transmitter) on your cart transmitting the 'master' timecode, you could simply attach a TCB WIFI unit (setup as a receiver) to each of the cameras/digi-slates and you'd have exactly what you want!

To be blunt... I think you may have misunderstood the capabilities of the TCB system. Your public apology further down the thread to Timecode Systems is acknowledged.

For one I only sent the top portion to time code buddy and like I said they did not reply directly but through these forums. As you can see they will be releasing a receiver unit at nab. Also it is not and never was about cheap. It was about size AND cost and how i use my system. I understand how tc buddy works perfectly but I have made no investment of my own yet in either Denecke ambient or TCB and that is why I am pressuring for a product that will fit me better. look what happened TCB got on here defended themselves announced a product release for April and very likely just earned a new customer. The SB3 provides reliable time code sync for hours and only costs $500 I'd just like to see parity.

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That seems to be what Ambient are trying to do with ACN (apart from the open source bit)

Exactly, *hence* my waiting to decide which I'll choose between Ambient (when they actually make announcements about the development of this system, hopefully very soon!) and TCBuddy (when they release this smaller receiver).

It's only for july so I have some time... :-)

Both systems seem very great and well built from what I've seen or read about.

And that's good news; to me, solidity is as important as specs with these boxes.

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The SB3 provides reliable time code sync for hours and only costs $500

Sounds like by working backwards you have answered your own question. Seeing as you work on "real" jobs that are TOD based why bring RF in to it? One of the three of your team should be able to find 30 seconds to jam a couple of sync boxes.

The TCB master is bigger and more expensive because it does more stuff. If indeed you fully understand the TCB system you will know that the designers explicitly say in their promotional info that they designed the system to cover the work of more than one system so they didn't have to constantly swap out kit for each new TC situation they are faced with on their "fake" shows.

Letting kit manufacturers know what kit would be useful for us and thus what would sell is obviously useful for both sides of that dialogue. They don't really owe you anything though even if you buy a couple of their products.

Stuart

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Ha. Sorry Richard. Although clumsy of me it wasn't a poke at you at all. It was a tongue in cheek reference to "real" shows (fully budgeted and crewed feature films) that Chris talked about in his original post. I think he may have tweaked his original post now as it came off a bit brash to a few people. I can see how that happens now.

Hopefully you can tell from my post I am actually very much a fan of the way yourself and Paul have designed the TCB system.

Stuart

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  • 1 year later...

Just for anyone having trouble understanding why they did it like this with REC-RUN in mind let me give you an example of my experience with ENG shooting and timecode transmission and why this system makes perfect sense to me. A lot of the TV work I do here involves a single broadcast camera running REC-RUN timecode. Whenever I connect to the camera via wireless link I always record a backup on my 552 recorder in case the link drops out (battery, RF interference, etc). Sometimes in the heat of a fast paced shoot the camera op may be buttoning on and off a lot, or just rolling without any warning. The Timecode Buddy TX on the camera paired with a Timecode Buddy in my bag set to RX mode running the 552's External Timecode Auto Record function allows me to never miss a camera roll. Also it makes it much easier for the post guys to sync the 552's timecode stamped files in FCP if the link does drop out and they need to use the backup audio. I think it is a fantastic system for this style of production and considering we only shoot about 10 big budget feature films a year in Australia, I think a lot of the other Aussie soundos who record TV over here will agree with me. Hats of to you TimeCode Systems! As others have mentioned there are other great options such as Denecke and Ambient for film/drama style timecode systems.

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Of course and it's well explained here and there if we take time to read. The creator himself explained those motivations. The market used to be like this here too, but with the overflow of dinky cams it's more TOD now since we often go double system.

Either way, they just announced the final unit for the line now; the miniRX ... so everything's fine for everybody ! :D

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