low (really low) self noise equipment for quiet dramatic scenes

[Chris Woodcock]

Yes of course, and I think we all agree about the self-noise. But sometimes threads get side-tracked. I remember reading one in particular where suddenly everyone was talking about cloth diapers. I enjoyed it, but it was far off-topic.

That was a for sale thread about a 664

[myke2241]

i am in a similar situation. I am recording MS with a Neumann KM 100 double MS set up. I really like the setup but often the self noise just distracts to me. i have been looking at the MKH 800 & 8000 series for some time now. These mics often have a self noise reduction of close to 10db when compared to the ranks of Neumann and some Schoeps. in addition they have roughly almost double the output sensitivity. That being said i think the mkh 8000 series is the way to go.

They also have a lot of options like the AES42 module, pad /roll off module, active capsule cable and of course good RF protection

[Dan Ostroff]

i am in a similar situation. I am recording MS with a Neumann KM 100 double MS set up. I really like the setup but often the self noise just distracts to me. i have been looking at the MKH 800 & 8000 series for some time now. These mics often have a self noise reduction of close to 10db when compared to the ranks of Neumann and some Schoeps. in addition they have roughly almost double the output sensitivity. That being said i think the mkh 8000 series is the way to go.

They also have a lot of options like the AES42 module, pad /roll off module, active capsule cable and of course good RF protection

 

Would recommend trying the 8000 series, handling noise an issue with those having worked with the 8040 and 8050 before.  Just requires an extra delicate touch due to their extended low end frequency response (down to 30hz).  Something to consider.

[Christian Spaeth]

Anyway, I'm not sure about using NR on wireless mics. I'm always worried about losing to much of the signal. I think NR is best left up to post. Christian, have you ever heard back from post about this? Is everyone else using NR on their wireless mics? I guess this should really be a new topic

 

Lectrosonics recommends using the standard setting for the NR (there are three steps, low, standard and high). It is very well shaped and doesn't alter the sound much. Of course every wireless connection alters the sound of a microphone, and hiss is added. I think many wireless systems have some kind of a noise or hiss reduction, but you just don't know you're using because it's not a setting you can choose. Without it, the hiss would be too strong. So, as Larry explained, the NR has been inherent in the better Lectrosonics systems for many years. What I sometimes do is use the "high" setting of the SmartNR algorithm, but only in instances when I find the self noise way too high, almost distracting. The difference in sound is still barely noticable, maybe comparable to putting the mic into a wind shield zeppelin.

[Constantin]

i am in a similar situation. I am recording MS with a Neumann KM 100 double MS set up. I really like the setup but often the self noise just distracts to me. i have been looking at the MKH 800 & 8000 series for some time now. These mics often have a self noise reduction of close to 10db when compared to the ranks of Neumann and some Schoeps. in addition they have roughly almost double the output sensitivity.

I don't know about the Neumann, but the quoted self noise for any Schoeps Colette is 15dBA vs 13dBA for the 8000 series. Doesn't sound like much of a difference, but sensitivity is important, too, as you were saying. I think a lot of factors are influencing the noise that actually comes down the wire.

So as Dan was saying above, the 8000 series is probably a good bet.

Funnily enough, I would really like to try and build a DMS or other surround rig based on really quiet LDCs. For use on a stand, not on a boom. I'm not sure about wind protection though, but it should sound awesome, especially on really quiet sources. And here I woudn't be concerned about colour.

Microtech Gefell build an LDC surround rig for indoors, but I haven't heard of one for outdoors.

Has anyone tried that?

Maybe a very bizarre idea will be a develop a LDC shotgun (for record a snail walk) :-)

Yes, I had the same idea. Actually, I would quite like to see one!

Lectrosonics recommends using the standard setting for the NR (there are three steps, low, standard and high). It is very well shaped and doesn't alter the sound much. Of course every wireless connection alters the sound of a microphone, and hiss is added. I think many wireless systems have some kind of a noise or hiss reduction, but you just don't know you're using because it's not a setting you can choose. Without it, the hiss would be too strong. So, as Larry explained, the NR has been inherent in the better Lectrosonics systems for many years. What I sometimes do is use the "high" setting of the SmartNR algorithm, but only in instances when I find the self noise way too high, almost distracting. The difference in sound is still barely noticable, maybe comparable to putting the mic into a wind shield zeppelin.

Oh, ok, I somehow thought you were using the high setting. Sorry, my bad. I use the nornal one, too, but have not yet dared using the high setting. Maybe I should?

[LarryF]

Oh, ok, I somehow thought you were using the high setting. Sorry, my bad. I use the nornal one, too, but have not yet dared using the high setting. Maybe I should?

 

Try the high setting on some stuff just to see what it does. I think you will find it pretty subtle and you will feel better about using normal. The DNR is a tool and there are times when the high setting can be very handy, such as when having to use high input gain in quiet situations with noisy lavalieres. The high setting can also reduce various set noises such as from air handlers. Knowing the limitations and benefits of your tools, just makes your product better. My cent and a half's worth.

Best,
Larry F
Lectro 

[rb1138]

Lectrosonics recommends using the standard setting for the NR (there are three steps, low, standard and high). It is very well shaped and doesn't alter the sound much. Of course every wireless connection alters the sound of a microphone, and hiss is added. I think many wireless systems have some kind of a noise or hiss reduction, but you just don't know you're using because it's not a setting you can choose. Without it, the hiss would be too strong. So, as Larry explained, the NR has been inherent in the better Lectrosonics systems for many years. What I sometimes do is use the "high" setting of the SmartNR algorithm, but only in instances when I find the self noise way too high, almost distracting. The difference in sound is still barely noticable, maybe comparable to putting the mic into a wind shield zeppelin.

 

In the UM200C/UCR201 you actually can't turn the NR off. It was a problem with my OST-801 which seems to have a lot of noise. It would pump if I put the gain too low, and it would clip if I put it high enough to stop the NR. I blame the 801 though. Not professionally made I think. I've used Trams on my Lectros and they work perfectly. COS-11s too. 

 

 

Sawrab

[rb1138]

Maybe a very bizarre idea will be a develop a LDC shotgun (for record a snail walk) :-)

 

Now that's an idea   

[Constantin]

Oh, ok, I somehow thought you were using the high setting. Sorry, my bad. I use the nornal one, too, but have not yet dared using the high setting. Maybe I should?

 

Try the high setting on some stuff just to see what it does. I think you will find it pretty subtle and you will feel better about using normal. The DNR is a tool and there are times when the high setting can be very handy, such as when having to use high input gain in quiet situations with noisy lavalieres. The high setting can also reduce various set noises such as from air handlers. Knowing the limitations and benefits of your tools, just makes your product better. My cent and a half's worth.

Best,

Larry F

Lectro 

Thanks Larry, that's very interesting. I will experiment with it more.

[LarryF]

I should also mention that it is a well known human hearing effect, that low level hiss pre-loads the ear to be more sensitive to high frequencies. Ray Dolby battled the naysayers for years that the Dolby recording process was not removing the highs from recordings. Finally he performed double blind tests with industry pundits in which recordings done with Dolby processing had hiss re-injected into the listening channel. Indeed, the recordings now sounded like a straight recording without Dolby. This phenomenon is a threshold affect and is now well known and probably has some researcher's name on it. It's not as surprising, now that everyone is used to listening to sound sources with 100+ dB SNR. But it may explain some of the golden ears' attachment to vinyl and triode amplifiers.

Best Regards,
Larry Fisher
Lectrosonics

[Constantin]

Isn't that also what, in essence and dumbed down, dither does, too? Inject a steady noise floor, so we won't here the irregular noise below?

[LarryF]

Isn't that also what, in essence and dumbed down, dither does, too? Inject a steady noise floor, so we won't here the irregular noise below?

Use Wikipedia for "Dither" and then look at the digital audio section 3.1 in the article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither

This is a pretty easy to understand explanation. The long and short of it is that dither is used to prevent regular sampling errors that would be heard as a whine or buzz during low level conversion. By introducing dither, you hear noise, which is much less objectionable than more regular modulations. You can hear a regular whine 10 dB below the noise floor, easily.

Best,

Larry F

Lectro

[Constantin]

Yes, that's what I was trying to say, but your's is the more elegant and more precise way