pverrando Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 An interesting thread has emerged on Facebook's "Freelance Sound Mixers & Recordists for TV/Film" regarding VER. Interesting dialogue that speaks to the constant flux of our industry. It harks back to the days when the major studios provided equipment for sound mixers, until mixers had the audacity to purchase equipment and charge rentals to those productions. I see the existence of Jeff's forum, and the Facebook forum, as roughly separated by the old guard/new guard. Yet thankfully, both exist in each. However, the mass-production methods of reality TV has drawn a youthful, albeit impressive voice, high in number, as evidenced in the Facebook forum. They face many of the same challenges as the old guard faced 30-40 years ago. If any of our senior members can speak to the days when mixers broke away from the standard of studio gear provision, it may shed some light on today's marketplace, and the distinctions of value and service that we are all obliged to honor. Indeed, please speak to any aspect of this interesting discussion. The mixer forum on Facebook is open to anyone. Look for the recent thread started by Joshua Baggett. -Pete Verrando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 OK, I admit I'm stupid. What or who is "VER"? Video Equipment Rental? What does this have to do with sound? I'm confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 VER is one of the mega camera rental houses. I think some of this started during the last big Hollywood strike, but the big camera houses got incredibly aggressive with rentals. I guess they figure a camera gets old no matter what, so any rental is better than none. They started offering 1 day weeks, and supposedly even half day weeks. The legend is that VER (and people blame one specific guy) get a bunch of sound packages and throw them in for free to win the rental from another rental house. Obviously this isn't features, but reality TV. Now producers think that is what a sound package costs, so everyone owning gear has to have these crazy negotiations to get decent rentals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 VER(Video Equipment Rental) and other camera rental houses treat sound equipment as "value added" to get contracts for their camera gear and charge 2 days or less per week for the sound gear. I worked a show where VER charged 3/4 of a day for sound gear per week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 This is not a new thing, VER may be doing it but camera rental houses were doing this kind of thing back in the film days, as well as in video times. To them, sound equipment isn't a very expensive item and is relatively low maintenance, and as you see it is used as a value add-bone to lure producers into renting their camera and support stuff. Knowledgeable producers see this for what it is and understand that most camera-house audio packages are woefully lacking, but this situation has never gone away over the years. Studios do the same thing (Warner's etc). There are also prod. cos that buy their own sound gear, either because they are gear heads or they think it saves them money. Usually they eventually figure out that the better soundies only use their own, and get off that policy. Networks and reality type producers will never learn this. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Well, All I know is when a Producer stands behind my gear package, and sees the quality of gear I bring to the table, understands that it is well maintained, and complete, understands I understand how to operate it, and show after show the Producer gets good clean audio that they can trust, all I can say is one thing: They will not be using a gear package thrown together by camera house named VER or any other abbreviation... not today, not tomorrow or in the future... Smart people do not play that game.. Only PRODUCER HACKS that do not care about their product, their reputation, or their sound mixer... and only focus on the PERCIEVED funds saved... will utilize this sinking ship mentality... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacefivesound Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 I'm one of those young guys, albeit I have been doing my best to get out of reality TV altogether for many, many reasons. I've seen VER give free audio packages if you rent all the camera gear from them. It's hard, because they're a big business, and (as someone mentioned on the facebook thread) they have every right to exist. But, how can we compete with a company that can afford to, basically, give things away for free? Well... our gear usually works, for one.... I don't have the answers, but I think when you work for someone who cares about quality, they wouldn't put up with the type of gear VER gives out for very long. Basically, exactly what AFewMoreYears has said. Did I mention VER's stuff is often broken? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacefivesound Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Oh, hey, that was you who said VER has every right to exist, Pete. Different avatars on different sites just make me confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 If you feel you need to take a job that uses a VER or etc sound package you should do it. But you owe it to yourself to explain to the producers that any problems that have to do with the sound gear are between them and the rental house. This is not a great situation, as I'm sure you've observed the sort of finger pointing that can go on between a camera dept and a rental house if there is a problem, and now you are stuck with that. But the producers should understand that the backup, extras and most of all the PERSONAL PREP of all the gear that they have been getting is no longer part of the equation. I try to explain that while anyone can buy most of the important components of my package, they will not be able to duplicate the smaller, bitsy problem-solver stuff I bring. Also, in almost every case I've heard of involving rental house sound gear, the soundie does not get paid to go prep the gear at the rental house the way an AC does--either the AC preps the sound gear or the rental house tech does. That means that none our setups for the recorders have been loaded, at least, and any extras you bring are not getting paid for at all. Of course, there may be some really messy jobs where you might be glad to not have your stuff on.... philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Follow up on a point I forgot about... My only useless advice for all the guys and gals in that REALITY world is.. Remember.... The gear you use is a HUGE part of your income stream... Work torwards it, it never stops.... build, gather, buy, save and get that package where you want it.... again... INCOME STREAM... Not only that, but with a properly built package that YOU charge for gives you confidence in knowing the stuff you are using WORKS... and includes all the doo dads that makes you feel at home with it. With this working mentality your working reputation will most likely dramatically increase... it will show in your on set demeanor and finished product.. Why do I say this, because using a VER or other thrown together crap package and you LOOSE ALL of what I just discussed... maybe not on every job, but only one can cost you thousands in potential future income. Nobody knows that gear is not your unless you wear a sign on your back... you look like the goat.. you loose the income and you loose your reputation. I would never work with another sound package for all of these reasons... You folks must just say no.... I know, I know... easy for me to say... but what I said is the truth... only you can decide for yourselves.. The more people that decline for the reasons above, the quicker this foolishness will stop.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirror Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Reminds me of the walkie -talkie wars of the late 80's and 90's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Harber Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Omitted from this thread has been how Wexler Video were at the forefront of this methodology of underbidding and then adding gear at full price to the order. Their MO was to undercharge, put out semi-useable gear, inserting massive add-ons, and then do a huge L&D claim. I got pinched once between production and a Wexler L&D claim that was patently fraudulent and I will never use their gear or speak well of them again. Any producer who wants to go that route is generally someone I'd rather not do business with anyways. Scott Harber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Not sure what value my opinion is concerning this issue as I don't work in this field but since we as Old Guys were asked.... In my day there was honor among thieves. We all charged the same thing for our gear and wouldn't accept a gig asking for lesser gear rates or working conditions like 3 day weeks or no boom. Basically we said no. All the good guys said no. What was left were those who cut deals and said yes. Some were OK, others not so much... The low ballers still work but at lower rates most of the time and have a reputation that matches their rates. Saying no to these BS kind of gigs seems the only way forward to me. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Mr. Crew Chamberlain, Salute... i dont know if my life would have been any better had i succumbed to lowball, but i think it surely wouldn't have been better than what i have now. If production sound was considered an art it may have a better position in the hierarchy of the film making process. ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) " Studios do the same thing (Warner's etc). " I don't think so... for example, WB provides all the same top stuff we do, and its always in great condition, --and the service is thorough and quite good; any and almost all tidbits we request will be provided, including special items. the thing is, this is a required part of the deal when a producer gets a deal to be on the lot, and they pay dearly for it, as the internal charges are actually pretty high, and non competitive. Edited February 13, 2013 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 " Studios do the same thing (Warner's etc). " I don't think so... WB provides all the top stuff we do, and its always in great condition, --and the service is thorough and quite good; any and almost all tidbits will be provided, including special items. the thing is, this is a required part of the deal when a producer gets a deal to be on the lot, and they pay dearly for it, as the internal charges are actually pretty high, and non competitive. I meant that they require you to use their stuff on their shows. I actually had heard they did a pretty good job w/ their packages and the soundie gets to prep them. This does not describe the rental house situation at all philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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