Lavalier shoot out...

[Sound Art Film]

Hi all,

 

I have decided to do a little test between four models of lavaliers.  There are four audio tracks, all meant to be a comparison between four different models of lavaliers.  The four models are as follows: Sony ECM-88, COS11X, Tram TR-50 and AT899.  I will play a little game and let you all choose which one is which.

 

*Hint: The lavs listed above are not in the same order as the audio tracks. 

 

Setup

 

All Lavs are mounted externaly.

All lavs are 6 inches from my mouth.

All are the same height from my mouth and are mounted width wise within three inches in the middle of my chest, mounted upright. 

I am looking forward, straight ahead.

All lavs have wind protection.

Room is 12' X 15' and talking into acoustic panles to deaden room reflections.  (I am in quite a live room at the moment).

 

Routing

 

Sony ECM-88 and COS11X -> Lectro. SMQV -> Lectro. 411A

Tram TR 50 and AT 899 -> Lectro. LMA -> Lectro SRB

 

Recorded onto SD 788t, 24 bit, 48khz.

 

Enjoy!

 

Lav. 1

Lav. 2

Lav. 3

Lav. 4

 

 

- Paul

[Zack]

I love blind tests... I'll take a guess

 

1 = ECM

2 = COS11x

3 = AT

4 = TR 50

[Toy Robot]

I couldn't tell you the others, but I think #2 is the COS-11.

[jwill]

#4 tr-50...could not tell others

[Sound Art Film]

Interesting answers!  Keep em coming...

[rb1138]

I remember the sound of the ECM-88 (which I've never used) from the Dan Brockett tests. It has a very distinct sound. 

 

#1 - ECM

 

Having some difficulty with the middle ones though. I guess #2 could be COS-11 after seeing some of the other posts. And #3's left for AT. 

 

#4 - Tram

 

 

 

With that said, they sound pretty similar. I wonder how a DPA lav might compare. 

 

 

 

 

Sawrab

[Sound Art Film]

DPA lavs are on their way.  I am planning on doing an underwardrobe test with all of them too. 

[Mark LeBlanc]

Tram, AT, Cos-11, Sony..

[Doug Martin]

My Vote:

1.ECM

2.Cos 11

3.AT

4.TR50

 

Awesome post dude

[Marc Wielage]

I recall Simon Hayes' extensive tests for Les Miserables, where he determined that the DPA's came out as the best match compared to music-recording mics (I assume something like the U87's). That's a helluva endorsement. 

 

Note also that I've run into cases where two seemingly-identical Tram TR50's did not sound identical, and I've run into the same thing with Countryman B6's (with identical caps). Lavs do change over time, especially when exposed to dust, moisture, and just the ravages of time. And I've also had similar lavs sound radically different depending on mounting position. Protection from overload is pretty important, too. 

 

The recording sounds pretty "boxy" to me, not under the best acoustics. I don't think I could tell which mic was which unless I loaded them all up into a DAW and could A/B them directly, as opposed to relying on memory. At best, all I'd be able to do was to tell which I liked and which I didn't. 

[Sound Art Film]

No one has got all of them right yet. 

 

We have had some really close ones, but no "winner winner, win a chicken dinners" as of yet!  Keep up the good work!

 

*No purchase necessary.  All participants can guess as many times as they choose.  Upon a sucessful post, the OP will contact  participator with the right answers. 

The OP does not garuntee, nor endorse chicken dinners.  Mentioning of a chicken dinner is strickly a reference in the above post. 

[olphi]

1 : AT

2: sanken

3 : ECM

4 : Tram

[studiomprd]

maybe folks could tell if you had recorded at 24/96  ?  

[Dre Rivera]

Answers?

[Simon Hayes]

When testing it is really important to do exact gain matches.If the gain is even a little bit different it will throw the results.

 

This is something audio magazines are very aware of,and something that C.D. Player manufacturers picked up on before the

testers and started adding 0.1 volt to their line level output to give them an unfair advantage in A/B comparison tests.

 

If there is an unperceivable level difference between the products the human brain will pick the louder of the 2 and

often say it is "richer" or more "open" sounding,when infact it is just a tiny bit louder.

[Zack]

When testing it is really important to do exact gain matches.If the gain is even a little bit different it will throw the results.

 

This is something audio magazines are very aware of,and something that C.D. Player manufacturers picked up on before the

testers and started adding 0.1 volt to their line level output to give them an unfair advantage in A/B comparison tests.

 

If there is an unperceivable level difference between the products the human brain will pick the louder of the 2 and

often say it is "richer" or more "open" sounding,when infact it is just a tiny bit louder.

This is true, and with this particular test it did play a factor in my decision (OP can vouch on that), however after going with trusting just my ears, I realized I could have chosen differently/correctly if I took into account the differences in the actual design of the mic's I'm referring to.  (trying not to give anything away)

[Jeff Wexler]

What Simon says is so true. I remember learning about this a long time ago from a friend of the family that owned a Hi-Fi store. The store had a large demo room with 20 or so different brands of loudspeakers on display. He had built a switcher with very precise level control and explained to me how one of his competitors had a house brand speaker that they always demoed playing it just a tiny bit louder than the others. So, I learned a technical lesson as well as the lesson of the importance of honesty in marketing.

[studiomprd]

pf course: " If there is an unperceivable level difference between the products the human brain will pick the louder of the 2 and

often say it is "richer" or more "open" sounding,when infact it is just a tiny bit louder."

 but there are still a variety of guesses, and none, so far, correct.

this whole thing also would appear to substantiate my theory that someone watching a finished product (and in this case it isn't even that, just the raw initial recording) and even we experienced folks are hard put to tell which microphone was used for original recordings when we don't already know!

[Simon Hayes]

When we tested the DPA's we gain matched them against the competition and then did blind listening tests.

We didn't try to work out which mic was which,or try to give them an order.We just asked one question-

Which mic do you like the sound of best.All of us chose the DPA.

 

I should point out that this test was done on male voices only.

[Simon Hayes]

And btw,i am not trying to say our test was 'scientific' in any way,it was purely subjective and at the time 

we did it (which was for Mamma Mia) we didn't have a whole lot of issues riding on the results,it was just a fun test

to try and work out why we were being told by the guys from Abba that the lavs they used were better sounding.

We also only tested them against 3 of the competition (who i am not going to name out of respect for the manufacturers-

after all,audio is a matter of 'taste' and everyone has different opinions).

[Sound Art Film]

Interesting responeses here. 

 

I agree with the level matching.  I tried my best to line them up level wise on the 788, but I figured people would download the audio, import into a daw or use wave agent, level match and A/B them.  And again, it was never meant to be an "official" test with strict standards.  I elimnated some basic variables, but there is still many to be attributed to this test. 

 

I posted this in response to other members on this forum and the facebook freelance sound mixers page that were asking how lavs sound and wanted to some comparisons.   Being in their shoes before, I know it is helpful to find voice recordings of the mic I am eying on buying.    

 

On another note, it is interesting how the louder version of something sounds better to our ears.  Is it the sole responsibility of the Fletcher Munson curve or is somethign else at play here?

 

I just got a pair of 4061 DPAs and I am going to be putting up another comparison of the lavs underneath the clothing.  Any suggestions are welcomed. 

 

Thanks to everyone so far for chimming in!

 

Paul

[VASI]

Simon I would like to ask "Why 100 Hz cut".

 

[suika00]

Thanks for providing this test. - a really great comparison.

 

Will you let us know the results?  Not helpful otherwise. We spent time to listen and are waiting for results.  I've been researching mics and have a few of these on my list, so would love to buy. Thanks!

 

As a videographer, non-expert in audio, my favorites in terms of audio quality are:

Lav 4 and Lav 2.  Don't like Lav 3

 

 

[suika00]

1 = COS11x
2 = ECM-88
3 = AT899
4 = Tram TR-50

[James Louis]

1) AT

2) TRAM

3) COS

4) ECM

How'd I do?

 

Very true on gain differences. I always think of the Pepsi challenge, where volume=sugar. You'll get more immediate reaction to the sweeter one, and folks will literally flip their first pick once they take a 6-pack home