SD664 and file backup.

[gpiegari]

Are folks comfortable backing up one source or temporarily archiving both CF and SD data?

 

I have been using approved media (Delkin and SanDisk).

I hand off files from either SD or CF depending on DIT setup, producers laptop config, etc.

I have had no trouble with files from either the SD or CF card

however there are still some stories floating around about people having trouble

even with approved media <sic>.

Years ago, in the early 7 series days, I would backup/archive from BOTH the IHD and CF

until I felt comfortable enough to only backup from one source.

Files would linger on the IHD for a time as well.

 

For now I archive all 664 files from both sources and note which source was the deliverable.

After sufficient time, I delete the redundant files from the non delivered source to reclaim space.

 

Glen

 

 

 

[Rob Lewis]

Glen i have always archived just for safety.  I always want to have a copy until the project airs.  Paraniod i guess.  New 664 firmware is rumored to be expected soon that addresses the stability of the machine and some problems with cards.  No new features is what i hear, just bug fixes for stability.

[Solid Goldberger]

This is a relevant discussion for all of the newer "Non-HD-Based" recorders where some "flash" card is used as the main backup, such as Fusion, Nomad, and 664.  Now that I've added a 664 to the arsenal to go along with the Fusion, I'm curious to hear what others are doing to archive their recordings, especially when working on longer projects where the data can really add up.

 

On my current show (with a Fusion 10 recording 9-10 tracks) I'm using 64GB Sandisk Extreme 64gb CF cards in both slots.  At the end of the day, I'll hand off the "Mirror" card to the AC/DIT, and I'll copy the "Primary" card, in its original "MARF" format to a Firewire HD.  The downside to this is the MARF files show up as a full 64GB of files, regardless of whether I've recorded an hour or twenty hours, which will fill up a HD quickly.  However, it has worked well for me the past couple years.

 

At the beginning of this show, in an effort to slim down my travel package, I tried out one of the Nexto DI portable backup systems (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/818595-REG/Nexto_DI_ND2730750G_750_GB_Extreme_ND2730.html).  However, I couldn't get it to consistently recognize the cards (some worked perfectly, some not at all), so I returned it, but I'm curious if anyone has had any luck with anything of this sort.  Having one that worked would save me about 6-7 pounds between my laptop and hard drives.

 

e.

[gpiegari]

Of course this subject has broader relevance for other flash based recorders writing only to removable media.

The "issue", and my question, has more to do with long form projects in remote areas. (IE: No laptop)

Disappointing that the Nexto had some card issues; I did a doc a few years ago and the cameras (P2 media) 

relied on the Nexto drives for archive and backup. Seemed to work well for them.

I was using a 744t and had two external drives. On occasion, I would copy from the IHD to one EHD, and the CF to the other

EHD and reformat the CF cards. 

I came home with the show on the machines IHD, a copy on one EHD, all CF on one EHD, and 2/3 still on the original CF cards.

I slept well.

If I did a project like that again, I suppose I would take a ridiculous amount of CF cards and TWICE as many SD cards.

Occasionally copying a full CF to an SD backup. 

A Nexto is about $1k and that buys a LOT of cards...

 

Glen

[Marc Wielage]

I believe Mark Ulano has an interesting article in the current issue of the 695 Quarterly where he proposes that because CF cards are so cheap, we really ought to hold on to all the original cards for safekeeping throughout a long-term project. I have to admit, nobody questioned $300-$400 a week for 1/4" tape or DAT tapes in the old days; that was just a cost of doing business, as was the later $100/week for DVD-RAM disks (none of which I think were ever erased and reused).

 

Me personally, I think data is data and it doesn't matter as long as the backups are verified, and there's multiple backups. I look on the copy on the hard drive as the "original" and the delivered, mirror copy on the CF card as a bit-perfect backup. Still, I do have a half-dozen different CF cards and I juggle them inbetween projects to try to spread the wear out as much as I can. And I back everything up on my home computer for longterm storage, just in the event of nuclear attack.

[chris_bollard]

The backup process shouldn't be any different whether it's from CF, SD or HDD. It's all digital media and you need to ensure that there is at least two copies existing in different physical locations. These copies need to be kept until the project goes to air (or at least 12 months); if it is something with a lifetime beyond an initial screening I would keep an archival copy on a dedicated drive (and charge production for it). Personally I don't see any huge benefit in keeping a mirror card copy unless it is one of the two backup copies; this would save you time in creating one additional hdd copy. Again it should be stored physically in a separate location to the other copy.

[David Waelder]

 I believe Mark Ulano has an interesting article in the current

issue of the 695 Quarterly where he proposes that because CF cards are
so cheap, we really ought to hold on to all the original cards for
safekeeping throughout a long-term project.

 

Glad to see that people are reading the Quarterly and thinking about the issues. The article is by Tom Brandau.

 

David

[bigbenboom]

The backup process shouldn't be any different whether it's from CF, SD or HDD. It's all digital media and you need to ensure that there is at least two copies existing in different physical locations. These copies need to be kept until the project goes to air (or at least 12 months); if it is something with a lifetime beyond an initial screening I would keep an archival copy on a dedicated drive (and charge production for it).

Do you consider production's copy to be one physical place, or do you mean two separate drives you own? Right now, I just hold on to the sound for a year, and then delete it from my terabyte harddrive. Does anyone still get a fee to hold on to their audio? Media like DAT and DVD-ROM makes sense to me, but how do you quantify reusable space on a harddrive? If you have to keep something longer than 12 months, wouldn't production just make an extra copy on their end?

[Robert Li]

hard drives aren't necessarily infinitely reusable and degrade over time. Why risk it? I backup everything to reasonably small drives and then leave it archived, charging the cost to the production, and most are happy to foot the bill (it's not even 100$)

[bigbenboom]

That makes sense. I guess what I was getting at was charging X amount per DVD-ROM is easier to quantify. You just charge a flat rate per 12 months. Smart move.

[Peter Mega]

I really don't think it's our responsibilty to hold on to back up's or keep audio for a year or have several drives etc. it's the productions responsibility. Once I hand over CF cards supplied by production, it's their responsibility to make the copies and back ups. I keep it on my internal HDD on my 788 as long as I can and when I need to delete from INHDD, I check with post that I'm okay to delete, in writing of course, and that's it.

Do you think the camera boys make back ups and keep vision for a year?

[chris_bollard]

Do you consider production's copy to be one physical place, or do you mean two separate drives you own? Right now, I just hold on to the sound for a year, and then delete it from my terabyte harddrive. Does anyone still get a fee to hold on to their audio? Media like DAT and DVD-ROM makes sense to me, but how do you quantify reusable space on a harddrive? If you have to keep something longer than 12 months, wouldn't production just make an extra copy on their end?

I don't count the production copy as that seems to be the one that gets lost or miss labelled/filed. I keep one in my office (on a small server) and the other (external hard drives) in my gear storage space. I usually keep them for a year or so. If it has been to air and the 12 months is up then I feel free to recycle the storage space.

[TomBoisseau]

I really don't think it's our responsibilty to hold on to back up's or keep audio for a year or have several drives etc. it's the productions responsibility. Once I hand over CF cards supplied by production, it's their responsibility to make the copies and back ups. I keep it on my internal HDD on my 788 as long as I can and when I need to delete from INHDD, I check with post that I'm okay to delete, in writing of course, and that's it.

Do you think the camera boys make back ups and keep vision for a year?

I agree. I do mainly small local productions that are just a day or two per job. NO ONE is willing to pay me for my time or for the hard drives to keep a back up! Truth is however, sometimes I' ll go ahead and do it. But the last thing I want to do after a 14 hour day is to sit down and do back ups OFF THE CLOCK!

Am I being unreasonable? Is there any way to be compensated for providing this service?

Tom

[Peter Mega]

There is a show I do every year who pays me to do a back up for THEM. We do alot of travel on this show and the rushes go back to post by freight do I do back ups while on the road. I also do back ups while the second phase of the show is at home. This show pays me to do it so no worries.

Any other show I do, I leave it up to them.

[Marc Wielage]

Do you think the camera boys make back ups and keep vision for a year?

 

I know a commercial DIT who keeps backups for three months. But he charges the production in case they need to access his backups -- and they're glad to pay. 

 

Given that the sound files for an entire feature are probably only a few hundred GB (if that), and high-res picture would be more like dozens and dozens of TB, it's a huge difference. I don't mind keeping sound backups on my main drive for a reasonable amount of time, for free, just for peace of mind.

[audio911]

If digital audio doesn't exist in two places, it doesn't exist...

 

Steve Wytas

www.audio911.com

[Blas Kisic]

At the end of the day, I hand over the SD (mirror) card and, if I have the time, copy it over to my laptop. Then, a day or two later, I copy it onto an external "Production audio" drive, where I keep all my sound files for as long as I can. So the data is always in at least two places at the same time, and often three or four places.

 

Sometimes production asks me "not to erase the data yet" and I always tell them that I'll keep it for at least a few months. Haven't been in the situation to charge them if they contact them months later, and don't even know what would be an appropriate charge…

 

Cheers,

BK

[Jeremy Childers]

I recently had a disaster happen, I handed producer the sd card end of day, then back up the sd card when I got home (I keep files for everything) got a call about a week later because one file was missing, look on my back up and I had half the file, it cut off right in the middle...I had not backed up the cf card! I now back both up

[studiomprd]

" I really don't think it's our responsibilty to hold on to back up's or
keep audio for a year or have several drives etc. it's the productions
responsibility. "

we didn't use to make copies of our 1/4" tapes and keep them....

 

it is the production's audio, and I give it to them...

aired or not, after a couple weeks, there's no guarantee's...
 

[Peter Mega]

" I really don't think it's our responsibilty to hold on to back up's or

keep audio for a year or have several drives etc. it's the productions

responsibility. "

we didn't use to make copies of our 1/4" tapes and keep them....

Exactly

[Tom Craca]

At the beginning of this show, in an effort to slim down my travel package, I tried out one of the Nexto DI portable backup systems (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/818595-REG/Nexto_DI_ND2730750G_750_GB_Extreme_ND2730.html).  However, I couldn't get it to consistently recognize the cards (some worked perfectly, some not at all), so I returned it, but I'm curious if anyone has had any luck with anything of this sort.  Having one that worked would save me about 6-7 pounds between my laptop and hard drives.

 

I've been using the Nexto DI and I love it.  Pop the card in, sometimes twice a day to save time at the end, and after the shoot, I give that to the DIT with a firewire cable to drag off the files.  They never touch my cards.  You just have to remember that if you can continue to write to cards that have been copied, and it will just sync the new files, but if you put that card in a computer, the Nexto will think its a new card and copy everything again.  

 

I like the size of it, the fact that it is battery powered too, and most importantly that it leaves me a copy, plus on my machines, and no one touches my cards.  Never had a failure.