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Any thoughts on my field recording/broadcasting sound setup?


Umut

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" Still not sure why Senator pegs it as pro-sumer MI stuff, "

When one is espousing the need to eliminate copper, and circuitry, for highest quality,  most Mackie and much Yamaha are typically below that esoteric high end level... Of course they are great values, popular, and can be very capable...(BTW, so can the Azden!)

 

I also note a lack of attention to cart and powering, both usually critical concerns for production sound mixers.

If Umut has a client demanding this sort of equipment, including surround recording, and is in the mentioned low-budget range,  I see a major possibility of unrealistic expectations...(all around!).

awaiting interesting reports on this...

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Studiomprd and Grant,

Thanks for your comments but, I do not consider myself as an inexperienced engineer. Additionally, according to my experience, "I hope you do not get fired" is not the nicest thing to say to a colleague you just e-met, especially w/o knowing his/her work . But again, it is my humble professional opinion. Anyways, thanks again for your comments.

 

Best,

 

Umut

 

PS: Once again, I personally used Mackie for remote recordings and  do not consider it below "high level". I do not understand why this discussion became "ad hominem".

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Because I wanted to know others' opinions about the setup I prepared. The more experienced I get, the more opinions I ask.

I do not understand why and how having an audio engineer with a different professional background asking questions about your discipline makes you judge his/her qualifications immediately. It almost sounds like "we don't like strangers here!", so that you know. As I tried to explain before, I am not here to discuss if I am a qualified engineer or not. Astonished to see how a gear discussion got here.

 

Best,

 

Umut

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Sorry this went south in parts, Umut. Uncharacteristic of this place; although Senator's text style can make even the best of us go defensive on weak days.

 

This was your first or second post, and listed a very ambitious package that some were led to find questionable given the information you provided and your lack of history here. Can you understand how--without other, more thorough information--people might imagine you an overly-ambitious trust fund kid and give advice accordingly?

 

I've been working in NYC for 20 years and this is the first I've heard of you, not that I'm terribly well plugged into the production sound scene in the city. I'm at least generally aware of who's coming up from the indie world. That's why I subscribed to this thread early on, to see what / who you were about / are.

 

Text often fails us in this type of introduction. Over a beer, details would have unfolded more organically in the back and forth of conversation.

 

Please don't let this taste flavor your experience here.

 

Maybe you can join us for an audio/visual G+ hangout over the weekend. Saturday mornings starting around 10A EST are fairly reliably populated. Let's see if we can't add some other ingredients to the recipe of your experience with the JWSoundGroup community.

 

https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/d8536fc133c820bdc31603c7b8d4cb1814210d64?hl=en-US

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" about to invest in some new gear "

as an engineer, you don't seem to know much about investing!

the low budget world you mention doesn't require or appreciate either all that stuff, or your education+experience.  You will be investing your investment in their POS projects...  I hope your sugar-daddy client comes through for you and succeeds, but unless there is something spectacular you are leaving out, history, and the odds are rather against you both...

 

since you need all that multi-track,  you seem to have overlooked Boom Recorder and MetaCorder,  both of which are also popular in production sound mixing...

of course top quality production sound benefits from top quality equipment, knowledge, and experience, but different top quality equipment from what you have learned and done, and different methods, knowledge, & experience --have you ever actually been on a real movie set??-- than you have indicated you have

 

Perhaps its possible for you to prove me wrong!  let us all know!

Edited by studiomprd
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studiompr,

 

All due respect, but if a location engineer asked for my advice regarding multitrack studio recording gear, let's say SSL Duality or API Vision consoles, I would just let him/her know what I think he/she needs to know at that moment. Discouraging him/her immediately or starting lecturing him/her regarding multitrack studio recording w/o knowing his/her background would be the last thing I do. If I believe he/she is trolling, I would simply ignore him/her. Food for thought.

 

Best,

 

Umut

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studiompr,

 

All due respect, but if a location engineer asked for my advice regarding multitrack studio recording gear, let's say SSL Duality or API Vision consoles, I would just let him/her know what I think he/she needs to know at that moment. Discouraging him/her immediately or starting lecturing him/her regarding multitrack studio recording w/o knowing his/her background would be the last thing I do. If I believe he/she is trolling, I would simply ignore him/her. Food for thought.

 

Best,

 

Umut

 

I don't think anyone believes you are trolling, but if someone said they were going to buy an SSL 9000 console to start recording indie bands, you might suggest that it's a poor investment without having the client base to support such a purchase.  Vague statements about having work somehow that will make it worthwhile don't exactly instill confidence either.

 

Obviously you have no need to disclose your identity or clients in an open forum, but can you see why people don't really think you are ready for this level of package without knowing who you are, or what you are doing?

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Pedantic Sound,

 

Of course people have rights to question the validity of the investment for the given task when asked for advice. But you'll see that the comments I have been criticizing basically told what I did not know or what experience I lack, to the extent of insulting, w/o knowing my background and skill set, and I refuse to tolerate that as a professional audio engineer. 

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Well I kind of agree with Senator to be honest. Its very strange you have no experience in the location audio world of Film and TV and believe me its a very different beast than a music studio. Yet you have a magical client that is helping you purchases 50-100k full kit? Are we going to be seeing you at the Oscars next year as this job/client must be at the top of the chain, if they are willing to hire you over a seasoned pro or proven up comer then chances are its either because you promised to give them a 50k kit for next to nothing or they don't know this world either. How are you going to be able to work with boom operators and utilities when you don't even know how to do their jobs? The senator might be a bit harsh at times but he often has a point, not always but often. Regards Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

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I never said anything about your ability to twiddle faders, I said "your inexperience on set".

Well, you did state you'd only done a few jobs..

 

Grant.

 

Studiomprd and Grant,

Thanks for your comments but, I do not consider myself as an inexperienced engineer. Additionally, according to my experience, "I hope you do not get fired" is not the nicest thing to say to a colleague you just e-met, especially w/o knowing his/her work 

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cwsound,

 

Thanks for your concerns.

 

Grant,

 

This is what I said:  "I am an audio engineer and an instructor. I have a music engineering background (surprise!), worked mostly as an FOH and monitoring engineer since 2004, before I came to USA. I also did a lot of multitrack studio recording and mixing. I have been teaching audio engineering at college level since 2010 and got interested in film sound since I moved to NYC 1.5 years ago. I hold a B.Sc. in electronics engineering, pre-master's in music production and an MFA in audio engineering.


My budget is around 50k and my aim is to have a state-of-art production sound kit.

I have been (and am currently) doing production & post-production for a few shorts and a feature"

 

 

Thank you all for your comments. I will be posting the developments here.

 

Best,

 

Umut

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Before you buy anything, I'd add to some of the advice above (much of which is very good):

 

1) if you're in NYC, then be sure to talk to the pros at Pro Sound Services and Gotham Sound, and Audio Services. All three have very experienced, top-notch sales people who will demo and give you the pros and cons of lots of different kinds of equipment.

 

2) often, stuff looks great on paper and then winds up being merely acceptable or even terrible in actual use. For that reason, rent this gear first before buying it. Some of it may work fine for other people, but not for your specific situation. (Microphones in particular are extremely subjective, and there are factors beyond sound quality, like size, weight, durability, and cost.)

 

3) be aware that FOH mixing, studio music recording, live music recording, ADR recording, re-recording mixing, and location sound mixing are all very different fields requiring completely different kinds of equipment and experience. Familiarity in one does not necessarily translate to the other. My joke is, it's kind of like hiring a podiatrist to drill on your teeth, or using an eye specialist to give you a heart pacemaker -- different doctors with vastly different skills.

 

4) spend a few days reading the thousands upon thousands of messages here on the JWSound group. Much of what you ask has been dealt with many times in the last 5-6 years.

 

5) some kinds of gear is better suited for one purpose (like live stage performances) than film sound. I'd say this is the case with the Sennheiser wireless gear -- which is very gear, but may not be ideal for film & TV. Lectrosonics and Zaxcom are far and away the biggest in this field, for good reason. 

 

If you tell us more about the specific intent of your system, we might be able to make some educated recommendations -- all very subjective. Realistically, I don't think more than 10 tracks is needed for most film or TV projects unless it's a very intense reality project (which can require upwards of 24 wireless systems) or an unusual setup like Les Miserables. Typical dialogue for TV would be more like 7-8 channels and a couple of booms; indie films could easily require just one boom and a couple of wires. You may be overthinking this.

 

There's nothing wrong with starting small and then building up over time. As others have mentioned, often the biggest headaches with location sound is not the sound part -- it's the power, the timecode, and RF interference. That stuff can make you mental. 

Edited by Marc Wielage
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Regarding surround, I believe surround location recording is way underestimated and will gain more importance in the future. I find it not that easy to record in surround with a decca tree or double MS arrays on set in terms of practicality, continuity etc., whilst it is very convenient to place a good sounding surround mic on a stand and record in surround. It can save a lot of post-production time (and of course money) and improve the final mix a lot (e.g. room tones).

 

 

Umut, I'm going to save you $3700 by telling you not to purchase the 5.1 DPA mic if your goal is to use it on set. Are you planning to have some poor soul boom with that thing? And recording dialogue in surround will not get you better room tone or anything useable by post. To be perfectly honest, while 5.1 recordings are interesting, some of the best post editors in the biz most often use separate recordings for front and rear. Your job is to record clean dialogue.

 

The other problem with your gear list is that you left off the hundreds of other bits and bobs that are actually just as important as your big-ticket items. Knowing what those things are can only come from experience and slowly building a kit over time, or so I've found. Good luck.

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Umut, I would only advise not to feel attacked or to take any of this personally. This group can sometimes come off as a bit too straight forward for some people's taste, but in my opinion some messages need to be blunt. And those messages definitely have their place in an industry where you have to have thick skin to survive anyway. 

 

My humble advice is to use your thick skin now, trust the group for a moment and take a step back. Then re-read this thread and try to realize that many of the people who are answering your inquiry are industry pros at the top of their game giving you top-notch advice that could potentially save you from a horrendous mis-step.

 

Their advice is a luxury that should be capitalized upon, and I can tell you from personal experience that I have taken their advice many times, and I am better off for it by a long shot.

 

I hope this thread doesn't sour your appetite for knowledge from this forum. For here at JWsound, knowledge abounds.

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Before you buy anything, I'd add to some of the advice above (much of which is very good):

 

1) if you're in NYC, then be sure to talk to the pros at Pro Sound Services, Gotham Sound, and Audio Services. All three have very experienced, top-notch sales people who will demo and give you the pros and cons of lots of different kinds of equipment.

...

 

Hey Marc, who is 'Audio Services'? Your link is dead, and I live here in the city and have never even heard of them. I hope I'm not missing out on another great dealer to check out.

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" what I did not know or what experience I lack, to the extent of insulting, w/o knowing my background and skill set, and I refuse to tolerate that as a professional audio engineer. "

please full us in ...

I'm waiting for you to prove me wrong.

 

" This is what I said:  "I am an audio engineer and an instructor. I have a music engineering background (surprise!), worked mostly as an FOH and monitoring engineer since 2004, before I came to USA. I also did a lot of multitrack studio recording and mixing. I have been teaching audio engineering at college level since 2010 and got interested in film sound since I moved to NYC 1.5 years ago. I hold a B.Sc. in electronics engineering, pre-master's in music production and an MFA in audio engineering.


My budget is around 50k and my aim is to have a state-of-art production sound kit.

I have been (and am currently) doing production & post-production for a few shorts and a feature"
"

tell us more...

from your brief description, you are a genius, already a legend as a teacher & scholar, and also famous as a studio engineer and even more, a live show mixer...

but somehow we have never heard of you before...

what classes (specifically) do you teach, and where..??

I'd be curious to read some of your (academic) papers...

you also said:

" Please let me know if you have any suggestions, ideas or criticism. "

 

and also:

" the quality of production sound for low budget projects (which I was mostly working on) was below industry standards. "

in what way(s) ??

maybe that is because they are too lo-budget ..?  ...and not paying for either the (as you put it) state of the art equipment, or perhaps for folks experienced in production sound!

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Marc Wielage:

if you're in NYC, then be sure to talk to the pros at Pro Sound Services, Gotham Sound, and Audio Services.

Toy Robot:

Hey Marc, who is 'Audio Services'?

 

He's probably referring to the old Audio Services that is no longer a going concern. (Although Pro-Sound has the Audio Services DNA.)

 

Ron Topham started Audio Services in New York as an audio specialty company serving the needs of film and media production. His younger brother, Dick, took the business west and opened Audio Services in Los Angeles. The two shops were separate enterprises using the same name by mutual agreement.

 

Audio Services in New York closed when Ron Topham retired. When Dick Topham retired, he sold the business to the employees and it was renamed Location Sound.

 

Rich Topham, the CEO of Pro-Sound, is the son of Dick Topham and nephew to Ron Topham.

 

David

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Marc Wielage:

if you're in NYC, then be sure to talk to the pros at Pro Sound Services, Gotham Sound, and Audio Services.

 

Toy Robot: Hey Marc, who is 'Audio Services'?

 

Are they gone? Whoops -- take them off the list!

 

The other problem with your gear list is that you left off the hundreds of other bits and bobs that are actually just as important as your big-ticket items. Knowing what those things are can only come from experience and slowly building a kit over time, or so I've found. Good luck.

 
No question, the bits and bobs are what kill you. I did a shoot about 7 months ago where I had a $1 DC cable break, which required my partner to bring me a replacement cable from 60 miles away! Now, I always have two spares. $50,000' worth of gear with no power is worthless.
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