Zozoda Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Hi everyone, Sorry to post something that has been already discussed before... I am not a sound guy, and don't know much about mics. I am more camera orientated, but this time I won't have a sound guy with me and I need a very good mic for the present doco I am doing. I narrowed Sanken CS3 or a Shoeps CmIT5. It Ill be used for quiet interviews in outdoors environments (tropical forests). Also, i will also need this mic to record particular birds and ambiant atmosphere, and maybe for a couple of sound design fX field recording. I will not use this mic on boom, it will be used as a shotgun on my Sony NEX FS700 only. What do you guys think, I heard the Shoeps might be better for quiet interviews and sounds rich and natural, but in this case, where I have quiet speakers, with all the forest around them, will it perform better than a Sanken? Thanks for any feedback, would be greatly appreciated. Zozo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timlin Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Zozo My immediate advice would be to hire a sound recordist... You can fix bad pictures most of the time, but bad sound, well, you're in a world of pain there. Rule 1: Bad sound cannot be fixed. Its easy to watch a great show with crappy pictures and good sound. But if you try to watch a show that you interested in with crappy sound and good pictures, most people will turn it off. Rule 2: Don't compromise on getting the highest quality sound possible. Bad sound can turn a great program into a great steaming pile of you-know-what in seconds... Just my 2 cents worth... Rgd's Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zozoda Posted March 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 No sound recordist possible here as I said. Long long long very very long time in the forests... But thanks for your advice... I'm sure I can get a correct sound alone though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 It is a well known fact that Sound Recordists cannot survive 'Long long long very very long time in the forests...' So you're right not to put one in danger by trying. If you're going to mess it up, mess it up expensively, go for the Schoeps, what could go wrong? Oh, yeah, wait a minute...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 It is a well known fact that Sound Recordists cannot survive 'Long long long very very long time in the forests...' So you're right not to put one in danger by trying. If you're going to mess it up, mess it up expensively, go for the Schoeps, what could go wrong? Oh, yeah, wait a minute...... +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zozoda Posted March 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Ok, thanks guys, very helpfull here. I was not trying to say sound recordists are not able to do something here, I was just saying this time is just NOT possible and I need nevertheless something good. Is there any problem in putting a good mic on a camera? Please... What do you guys think except it is a scandal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 In the conditions you're describing, I'd say get a 416 or a Rode NTG-3. Much less expensive and much more rugged. The CS3e could probably make it, but the Schoeps is uncertain in humid weather. The 416 and NTG3 are tanks. The Cs3e I don't have much experience with so I can't say for certain, but I can say for certain the Schoeps is a no-no. Sure, it will sound good but if it craps out it would make any sound at all. What other options do you have? A lav? If I were on this project, I'd bring an (or two) NTG-3 and a couple of lavs. The rainforest can be pretty loud and wild I guess with all the birds and trees. And remember; mics as CLOSE to subject as possible. You set your camera for an interview like 2 meters away then you're screwed if the mic sits on the camera. Bring a big stand or something, so you can get the mic as close to the subject as possible. Or lav. My .02 And you don't need to be a sound guy to know this; a good mic does not equal good sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Yes, a lav in addition to a shotgun. With a lav alone you can't really record any wildtracks. Also, i would consider something like a Sanken CSS5 (don't remember the exact name) or Sennheiser 418. they are both stereo mics which should sound wonderful in the wilderness. That plus a lav should be good. If you can actually do that, depends on the camera though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timlin Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Zozo I'll tell you what, reverse the situation here. Lets say production wants to send a sound recordist out to shoot pictures and record sound, because, really, it's just a camera, how hard can it be right? I mean, you just point in in the right direction and push the button right? We don't have any money for a cameraman, but the sound guy, he can do it all right? I mean he doesnt really do that much anyways... Sure doesn't look like he does much. He just sits there with his headphones on, probably listening to music anyways... Hell, it's all auto focus and auto iris these days anyway isn't it? It's just pictures, it's not really THAT important is it... lets just attach a camera to the boom, yeah! That's a great idea! That'll work! What could possibly go wrong? And how would you and your chosen career feel about that exactly? Rgds Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwil Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 You've chosen a hard place to ask such a question - from a sound mixers forum you'll always (always) get the 'take a sound op with you' answer. But I would take a 416 (in such an environment) and a decent hard wired lav, or take a soundie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zozoda Posted March 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Of course if I had the option to take a sound guy with me, it will be a lot better. Can't understand why some take it so personal... I did not mean to be insulting about the profession. Don't make me say what I did not mean. For me the situation is as it is. Small country, small production, very long and sometime boring shooting sessions in the wild to get what you want. Here is a concrete example : I shoot with 600mm lens, means the distance from the cam to the bird is approx : 200m. Majority of the birds here don't like being disturbed, that is in some sense the minimum distance. They stay in the same position for not very long too, and sometimes they sing, sometime not. How does the sound recordist with all his stuff on his back can take the sound closer than me? There is no way, he will make the bird fly off camera if he tries something. Even a move is sometimes fatal. I may know from a pure technical point of view his sound will be better than mine. But... Will my sound be shit with a good mic on the cam? I can understand a good mic does not equal a good sound, but I know approx how to record, I'm sure you will laugh... ie the closest I can to my subject! So... Is it for you just an absolute waste of mounting a good mic on a good cam? Ok for the Schoeps, does not like humidity. I'll try to find something else like Constantin said, 416 or Sanken. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafaeldelauz Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Zozo I'll tell you what, reverse the situation here. Lets say production wants to send a sound recordist out to shoot pictures and record sound, because, really, it's just a camera, how hard can it be right? I mean, you just point in in the right direction and push the button right? We don't have any money for a cameraman, but the sound guy, he can do it all right? I mean he doesnt really do that much anyways... Sure doesn't look like he does much. He just sits there with his headphones on, probably listening to music anyways... Hell, it's all auto focus and auto iris these days anyway isn't it? It's just pictures, it's not really THAT important is it... lets just attach a camera to the boom, yeah! That's a great idea! That'll work! What could possibly go wrong? And how would you and your chosen career feel about that exactly? Rgds Andrew Hi Andrew, in case it happens to me. What camera would you recommend then, Epic or Alexa?:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 I'm sure I can get a correct sound alone though. I'm taking nothing personally, but I beg to differ with the above statement. No mic will perform well at those distances while mounted on a camera, if the camera is on sticks, do yourself a favour and stick a 416, or maybe better a CS3e on a pole and get it away from the noise of the camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 And..... FWIW I, and a lot of other members here have worked on countless wildlife films where we've done exactly what you claim we can't do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 " I need a very good mic for the present doco I am doing. " why ?? what you need is a good, rugged, basic short shotgun mic. lots of acceptable options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisSchweitzer Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 maybe you should contemplate taking more than one microphone with you? that is another added bonus of hiring an actual soundman - they come with a good selection of mics, they have the right tool for the job, and know when to use it. If you wanna be a one-man-band swiss army knive, well, go ahead, I won't stop you. But before you blow your entire sound budget on a cmit5, maybe get several other, not so 1%er mics, so you have a back-up in case of technical problems. An earlier post mentioned the rode ntg3, that is one rugged mic, surprisingly good for the money. The 416 is a classic of course that will not fail no matter what conditions you shoot in. think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 And forgive me if I'm wrong, but wildlife films are for the most time foleyed, right? I mean it's impossible to record a clean animal sound unless a lav is hidden in a birds nest or similar. So the mic on camera won't get you the sounds you need, it will probably mostly capture the sounds you might make, or the noises in close vicinity to the camera. Bring lavs, hide them where you want to be filming, wait, wait and then you'll be able to get the sounds you want. And who came up with these solutions? Sound guys. Boring has nothing to do with it. One for image, one for sound, is how one makes movies. Not one for all. Don't claim you can get good sound with a good mic if you capture your images far away. It's good you consulted us, because now your ideas and plans have been revised and you'll be able to make a better decision next time. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriky Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Senn MKH 60 - solid rugged mic that will work in high humid environments. Stay away from the Schoeps though they are amazing mics they aren't suited for where you are going. Lectrosonics - small and mobile easy to mount to your camera. use this for your interviews unless of course you can get the 60 on a pole over the interviewees head. Transmitter - http://lectrosonics.com/Transmitters/lma.html Receiver - http://lectrosonics.com/Receivers/ucr100.html Lav Mic - http://www.trammicrophones.com/ This is what I would do. I personal don't like the sound of the MKH416 over the MKH60. But once again I wouldn't chance it with the schoeps cmit. Even thought I own two of them the MKH 60 will treat you right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 How does the sound recordist with all his stuff on his back can take the sound closer than me? There is no way, he will make the bird fly off camera if he tries something. Even a move is sometimes fatal. Then there is no way you will be able to do it either.... so what does it matter what mic you get? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 anyone who thinks there is a mic that will cleanly, clearly, closely, perfectly pick up the rustle of a bird in its nest 100 meters away has been watching too much television. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpbat Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 The chance to take a good picture of a wild animal is small. Even a still picture. The chance of recording a good sound of a wild animal is smaller. Any of those activities require the patience of a stone. The chance to have the two occurring at the same time are near zero. As said Olle : "One for image, one for sound, is how one makes movies." And as said the Senator : "anyone who thinks there is a mic that will cleanly, clearly, closely, perfectly pick up the rustle of a bird in its nest 100 meters away has been watching too much television." Sorry, but now you know. (I spent ten years of my life in the wild doing sound recordings. A shotgun on a camera isn't going to make it. This is magic thinking) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Any of you guys (or girls) that have done nature docos, do you ever use parabolas for stuff like this? Telinga and the like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zozoda Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Thanks all for your imput. But if you guys got wildlife sound experience, what is the most common way to record clean atmospheres, clean bird singing etc. I don't think putting lavs in the trees will do the job. Birds move from one tree to another very quickly, and most of the time, when we are looking at big birds, they live pretty high in the canopy (ie : 40m or above). How do you really do? Is it just all sound design? Meaning : we shoot pictures without clean sound, then we record good sound eslewhere with same species but different individuals, ahem... In Zoos? And the mixer just try to sync all this on motion pictures to make it real? There is virtually no infos about the way people really do for this kind of job. I'd be glad to know! @soundlikejustin, this look nice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpbat Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 I bought my first Telinga in 1986 (if I remember well). Traveled the world over with it. I modified it for windy situations (the pictured model is a later one with some wind protection, although not very efficient), velcroing half of an old wind basket I had, and putting fabric (for speaker box) all over the parabola itself. Worked fine. One weird thing with parabolas in wind is that if you are pointing exactly against the wind direction, some aerodynamic phenomena protect the focus (where is the mic) from wind. Move the axe a few degrees, and bam! Anyway... yes, the Telinga is a very nice tool (although with the limitations of a parabola system, particularly a weird frequency response). The stereo one use a mini Jaecklin disk, and so you have the close-up right and left, plus the very far where you point the parabola. Strange, but effective. You must not make fast movement because the stereo image is moving accordingly, giving strange results. But you can actually "paint" thru the soundscape. Very nice. And the thing is so sensitive that you actually can't use it as shows the picture : you'll hear the muscles contractions in your arm doing that way. I had a bungee to fix it to my coat in order to relax my arm (you have to stay quiet long times). I had made a little foldable stand, also. Lots of remembrance. I'm getting old. Damned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpbat Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Zozoda : yes the sound is made in post production. The atmos and the animals sounds are recorded in location (not in zoos...), and there is also a great deal of foley. Most often (at least it was that way when I did that), the production crew goes where it's appropriate, but there are two different tasks, sound and image, and we don't work together. Our goals are completely different. We learn what and where are the animals, at what moment of the day, in what season, etc... A great deal of the work is at dawn and at twilight, since the animals activity is mostly there, so you sleep a few hours in the night and nap a bit the afternoon. Then you wait, being ready. You learn to behave as a sand bag. No movement, no sound. There is a moment when you become part of the place, and then the animals come back doing their things as usual. I loved that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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