(Another Sanken Cs3 vs Shoeps CMiT5 topic...)

[Zozoda]

Thanks Jean Paul, it helps me alot here.

[studiomprd]

" what is the most common way to record clean atmospheres, clean bird singing etc. "

just buy the right microphone and point it...

--thought you said you already knew that!

 

" How do you really do? Is it just all sound design? Meaning : we shoot pictures without clean sound, then we record good sound eslewhere with same species but different individuals, ahem... In Zoos? And the mixer just try to sync all this on motion pictures to make it real? "

23 posts later, ... the right questions.

Edited March 2, 2013 by studiomprd

[Zozoda]

I try again... Yes sure Senator. I could eventually go further : right answers never comes up to idiots. Can't believe how fast a reply can be deleted.

[Jeff Wexler]

I try again... Yes sure Senator. I could eventually go further : right answers never comes up to idiots. Can't believe how fast a reply can be deleted.

When I have multiple reports that someone is using nasty language or being overly abusive to someone else personally, I have been known to edit some of these posts. 

 

   - JW  (that's the "JW" in JWSOUND)

[Martin Kittappa]

With respect the question you ask is a little like me asking something camera related that on the face if it may sound simple, but is really quite a complicated issue. Allow me to just turn it around and ask you a similar question if I had the same project as you. The question may sound a little like this- I'm not a camera expert, but could you tell me what lens I should use to film the wildlife project. I have heard that the Canon L series 50mm prime and the 85mm prime are great lenses and I'm trying to decide between the two.

As a camera guy I'm sure you'd tell me that neither would be adequate and I'd need a whole collection of primes, zooms with a whole range of f stops. In fact it would make more sense to hire someone who knows cameras and lenses, as the very fact that I had to ask the question shows that I don't know enough about cinematography to do a good job with the images.

Yet you are asking for us to recommend a do it all mic which just like lenses does not exist. Sure a walk around zoom lens in the hands of a skilled DP might give you ok results for many shots, but definitely not the best. Some people here have already suggested some mics that in the hands of a skilled operator would be the sound equivalent of that zoom. Yes they would get some good sounds and some not so good. As a sound professional I would have various mics available just as I'm sure you will have all the lenses that you might need available.

[engaudio]

Ever watched a "behind the scenes" from a nature series and notice the lack of production sound recordists, or even in the credits?

Now you know why..

A large proportion is foley or synched in later, seriously! The reason you don't notice is because usually, it's done well.

 

Grant.

[mikewest]

I've used a Sanken CSS-2 for good closer wild life recordings.

 

An old Sennheiser 816 is great whne distance is involved

 

mike

[Zozoda]

Grant. Thanks for that.

I guess it is doable (despite very complicated) to sync everything back via sound librairies. In my case, when we are talking about local birds, or general local atmospheres, there is no sound library for this. It simply does not exist. We don't have in here pro soundscapes recordists, and I can't afford to make someone come from overseas for a long period. I have been advised to look at Telinga stuff with parabola and Twin Science mic for clean long reach results, and acceptable atmos. Some might says that won't do the work because I am no sound pro etc... But it seems a better option for me than a really really good shotgun (ahem). I need decent atmos, and correct bird calls, songs etc... that I will give to my mixer to sync back on pictures, if we are good and or lucky enough, it seems...

To eventual disclaimers... One man swiss knive style of production is sometimes all we can do. We don't all live in big countries or work for big productions... I'll just give it a try.

Thanks to Mike as well for your feedback.

[Jon Gilbert]

I have to make the point that Wildlife sound isn't all Foley, I've done many wildlife shoots over the years, all over the world, sometimes spending days on foot getting as close as possible to our quarry. Doesn't happen as much these days though, Foley is cheaper.....

[studiomprd]

" the point that Wildlife sound isn't all Foley, "

actually:  Wildlife sound isn't much, if any Foley,

as Foley is when sound effects are performed, and recorded, in sync,  while watching the (edited) pictures

Edited March 4, 2013 by studiomprd

[Zozoda]

I guess there must a be part of foley somewhere, depending on your subjects. For exemple if you want the sound of a tiny lizard walking on dead leaves, who actually does not make any audible sound to human ears, bring some dead leaves in, watch the pictures and then record the appropriate sync sound?  

[studiomprd]

" bring some dead leaves in, watch the pictures and then record the appropriate sync sound?  "

ok, possibly...

and keep in mind that SFX (including Foley) are often created from sources completely unrelated to what they are representing...

[Veeyumkie]

Sorry most sound guys can be dicks.  The Sanken is the go to mic without question for this. It shines outside and has fantastic reach. The Cmit5 is not something I like bring into damp or humid climates.  Sennheisers are also built like tanks, but I like the sound of the sanken.   Best of luck on the shoot!

[Erkal Taskin]

Actually most sound guys are rather nice compared to the rest...

[Constantin]

Best of luck on the shoot!

Well over two years later, I'm guessing and hoping that his shoot has already taken place and the lesson been learned. 

Now, what are YOU doing in a forum full of dicks (apparently)???

[Margus Jukkum]

Sorry most sound guys can be dicks.  The Sanken is the go to mic without question for this. It shines outside and has fantastic reach. The Cmit5 is not something I like bring into damp or humid climates.  Sennheisers are also built like tanks, but I like the sound of the sanken.   Best of luck on the shoot!

​I agree that the Sanken CS3e is the way to go but you should also have a backup like one of the cheap Sennheisers that doesn't run on 48 volt phantom power but is powered internally by a battery. Over the years I have found 48 volt phantom mics don't do well in humidity. I've had a Sanken CS3e go down in Africa. It didn't stop working but just sounded a little harsher. I later compared it to another CS 3e I have and it didn't sound at all similar. The humidity damaged one got sent to Japan where it was repaired and now works as well as new. Only trouble was that 6 months went by before I had the mike again.

[mikewest]

My Sanken CSS-5 have done 15 years in tropical climates and still going strong.

Also my Sanken CS-1's have worked without problems in the same conditions.

 

mike

[Stef Albertyn]

I do post on wildlife films. The first layer will always be a cleaned up set of tracks that came from the shoot - biggest issue with those (apart from planes/cars/boats and people) is wind and handling noise - not the actual mic used. I use Sanken CS-01 (Cinela Pianni arrived today!) ,Schoeps Cmit DMS system (Piano arrived today), Sennheiser 816P48 for long shots, homemade parabolic with Sennheiser 8020 for birds, Rode ntg1 for those shots where you dont want to chance your most expensive mic :0 , DPA 4060 Stereo set and even a Neumann u87 at times

I think the CS3 would be an excellant mic for sfx gathering. I have learned over the years that you get good sound only by trying to get good mic placement - even if you have to run cables at trees to nests etc.

And then in post - sound effects libraries are my single biggest investment by far... BBC Nature sfx is one that I would not be able to do without.

O yes senator - foleys - layers layers of them - animal paws/hoofes/nails/ scratching/tails/ears/eating/drinking/movement against branches/leaves/grass - the list goes on - I spend at least half the post time on wildlife docies recording and syncing foleys.

But the reality comes from that first layer - without it - it becomes much more difficult...

[David Silberberg]

Hi Zozoda,  I looked up New Caledonia on the map and I see that you are way down in the southern Pacific by Australia. Interesting, this really is the World Wide Web.

Your question is a variation of a question that gets asked over and over and over and over again: "what's the best mic?"  or in this case which is better the Sanken or the Schoeps?  and the answer is both. Either one can record fantastic sound or terrible sound. .

Yes you can use a camera mic for interviews, but that is usually the last choice of any sound mixer because we like to capture sound that is good and clean and detailed with the right balance of foreground and background sound by moving the microphone into the right position. You need to react to the recording situations you are faced with by moving your mic into the right position. The camera mounted mic may produce an intelligible track, but it's usually not in the optimal position to get the best sound. Rare are the times when it is.

There's other considerations too. In a quiet location you may hear the noise that the camera makes. Hold your ear up to your camera and check this out. (Camera's tend to get louder when it's hot.)  You may also hear the sshhhhh noise of the camera's preamps, depending on how high the gain is set, which for a quietly talking person 6 feet away, will probably be on the high side. (Have you ever noticed that people tend to talk more quietly in a quiet environment?)  Also the subject's voice will fall off when he turns his head away from the camera mic. Also you may experience peak distortion when a suddenly loud event happens- like a laugh- or calling out to someone off screen- or singing. Camera preamps tend not to have enough headroom to handle sudden loud transients. You may not notice these problems when you're out on the field- but you will notice them later in the editing room.

+1 to  those who here pointed out the dangers of humidity to condenser microphones: Prepare for wet conditions. Sennheiser 416 is highly recommended as a humidity proof mic that won't quit on you.

+1 to those here who advised you to get a sound mixer to work with: A good documentary sound mixer is your partner in film-making, helping in lots of ways to facilitate production- like gathering stereo fx and ambiances, taking production notes, seeing things that you haven't noticed- like that truck that's about to run over you, remembering to tell you to shut off the cell phone, holding white card for white balance, minding the camera while you run off in the bushes to relieve yourself- and a thousand other things ...and oh yes recording quality sound tracks with great gear.

+1 to those here who advised you to get a lavalier mic: an essential tool for production sound. Don't leave home without lavs.

 

 

 

[traut]

Zozoda,

Will you hire an assistant to be with you?

If so, hire a sound mixer instead.

In my doc days, not only did I record sound, but loaded mags, held reflectors, pulled focus, schlepped gear, made sure my DP didn't fall on his ass while walking backwards.

It will be money well spent.

I wish you good luck!