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Sound Recording Tips for Reality!


Ryan Farber

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Hey Guys!

 

Need advice again!  I got asked to do a 2-day reality gig that will be a pretty big setup.  Here are the specs:

 

Equipment:

 

CAMERAS:

Canon 5Ds

Sony FS700s

 

SOUND:

SD 664

CL6

8x Lectro UCR411a

8x Lectro UM400

8x COS11

2x Senny G3s (backup wireless)

Senny MKH60

4+ Røde Mics

BDS & NP1s

 

There are 2 main setups that I was concerned about:

 

 

SETUP 1:

 

4 people in 4 different cars driving at undeterminable distances from eachother.  1-2 cameras in each car.  Interviews being conducted in each car.

 

QUESTION:  Since I obviously cannot be in 4 places at once, and I don't know where the cars will be in relation to each other (I will be in one of the cars) I don't want to rely on the wireless for the primary sound.  My solution: Røde mics on each 5D?  I know they are not the best quality audio wise, but I don't see any way around it.

 

SETUP 2:

 

4-8 people in a restaurant for a taste testing scenario.  Multiple cameras.

 

I will wire up everyone, but I also wanted to have a boom going for ambience.  I won't be able to get it in the shot.  

 

-----

 

The production wanted all ISOs, which is fine, because I have 12 tracks to work with with the CL6.

In standard reality (in all your guys experience), does post want a 2-mix primarily or ISOs?  I am not the most experienced mixing on the fly, so I would prefer ISOs as well.   Just wanted to know how the real people do it.

 

This question may seem dumb, but hey, how do you keep track of 8 people simultaneously?!  Keeping consitent  levels without auto mix?

 

Wires.  To hide or not to hide?  Not having to hide the lavs would speed up the production two-fold, and I wouldn't have to worry about clothing shenanigans.  Do most reality productions care if the lav is hidden?  Should I just ask if they care?

 

Power.  How long do you think I will be able to run my bag off of 1 IDX NP-L7S (14.8V/71Wh Lithium Ion)?  I am powering 8 UCR411s and my SD 664.  I will probably be rolling all day, and I have 4 batts to work with.

 

Any other tips would be greatly appreciated! I have never worked with this many simultaneous tracks before so please let me know the best way to stay on top of everything.

 

 

-Ryan

 

 

 

  

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So let me guess they have multiple camera operators, but only one sound guy? It really sounds like you are going to need to bring on extra help. I'd talk to production and try to get at least one more person. 

 

I wouldn't use the 5Ds for primary audio- can you not get one recorder for each car?- even something like a 702 would work. Just set them and forget them in the cars you decide not to ride in.

 

Also think about using Zaxcom wireless with the recording function instead of Lectrosonics- at least then you'll have all the individual audio from each talent if something goes wrong or talent goes out of range of your receivers.

 

To hide lavs or not- Most productions want them hidden these days, but if they require speed then they mey be open to clip on. That would be something to gauge from the production.

 

Bring your IDX NP1 charger to set so that you can rotate your batteries and charge up the spent ones as you go.- If you do this 4 will be plenty.

 

Best of luck with it

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Definitely a lot to handle for one person but also definitely do-able.

DR-40's and some Sanken CUB-01's might be a good option for the cars, if you can get them. Would remove the risk of Lav noise from the seatbelts out of the equation.

As for the restaurant, just track them all to your 664 as Iso's. Perhaps mix 4 people each to L & R for another option for post. Lockit/sync boxes on the cameras would help too.

Every reality show I've worked on has lavs hidden. Just make sure production know that you will need time to wire everyone properly.

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" Need advice again! "

get paid properly

 

" 4 people in 4 different cars driving at undeterminable distances from eachother.  1-2 cameras in each car.  Interviews being conducted in each car. "

my first thought: unreasonable expectations

" but hey, how do you keep track of 8 people simultaneously?!   "

you don't... unreasonable expectations

" Keeping consitent  levels without auto mix? "

you can't (even with automix BTW!) unreasonable expectations

" Why wouldn't I be able to handle this? "

unreasonable expectations.

" Do most reality productions care if the lav is hidden? "

yes...

" There is no budget for 3 other 702s or the like.  "

unreasonable expectations... and they don't seem willing to have the budget to do this show...

not even in Arkansas!

" Perhaps mix 4 people each to L & R for another option for post. "

nah!

 

BTW: how many camcorders??

so, they have budget for them??

ah, unreasonable expectations

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Euh..what Mike says sounds to the point!Even with Zoom's (or whatever recorder) on 4 (!) different locations,this is a soundman's nightmare and -switch- an editing nightmare...Since I'm not in the 'reality' line of this business I hope some of the experienced reality JW members will have tips.(without them telling you "hey they should hire me,I know this drill"I hate that:it's your gig!!) David C.

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I agree with Mike that they are unreasonable expectations.  I thank you for being straightforward with all your answers!

 

However, even with my limited experience, I am going to do to the best of my abilities whatever it takes to get sound.  Even if it has to be corrected in post.  How bad could it REALLY be?

 

I am also thinking about the big picture.  The footage we will be compiling will be chopped up into multiple segments, 15-30 seconds long.  

 

I also had an idea for the car scenario--3 zooms + Cub 01 in each car.  That way I don't have to meddle with wireless or the crappy Røde mic, and I can just set it and forget it.

 

Welcome to the world of low budget productions.  I didn't post here for people to tell me that what I am trying to do is unattainable.  Thats not very productive.  I came here to get tips on what may work best for the scenarios given all YOUR experience.  Sometimes you just have to work with what you have.

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Hi Ryan. have the camera mics on the Sony cams turned on at all times. put the Rodes on the 5Ds. Why not? it can't hurt. 

re: car shots. do you mean there will only be 1 on camera talent in each car, or 4 per car? wasn't sure. At any rate, if you don't have much rigging time, just plant the zooms in the car with their onboard mics (on visor maybe). along with the on-camera mics you might get something useful. Maybe things will change and they might only do one car at a time. See what production's priorities are for the car segments. maybe they only need a brief clip. If the dinner scene is the priority setup, concentrate your time on that. multitrack, sit back, relax. Don't forget to eat and drink lots of water. could be a long day.  They will want the mics hidden, so ask for time to do it properly. You'll likely have time at the restaurant as I can almost guarantee they will fuck around for hours lighting it. Rock and Roll.

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" for the car scenario--3 zooms + Cub 01 in each car. "

the Tascam's are better, incl better pre-amps!

 

" Welcome to the world of low budget productions. "

unreasonable expectations, and they should know better...

and they should know how to budget, too...

and you are setting the bar on this!

 

" tips on what may work best for the scenarios "

more equipment (better, maybe, too)

more crew

more tiime

more $$$

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Mike, the quality of the preamps won't even be a concern - These are cars, and they will make plenty of bullshit noises to cover the sound of a marginal difference in preamp quality. The Tascam isn't much better sounding than the zoom, IMHO.

 

Ryan - The car setups you describe are a giant clusterfuck. Personally, since they will be sitting in the car with the camera barely 18 inches from the talent's face anyway - I would say fuckit with any kind of audio in there and let the Rode mounted to the cameras do it.

 

Why do I abdicate audio to the camera in this instance? Simple: You cannot monitor or mix, AND you will not be able to set appropriate levels because the cars won't be moving when you can get at them. The mic preamps on the 5D and the Sonys are about what you'd expect... But again - lots of car noises to cover that. In this type of setup ONLY, camera perspective isn't a problem, nor is some BG rumble. It will be painfully obvious that they are filming in a car. Don't stress about it, especially if the production doesn't even want to spring for the rental of some 702 recorders. Tascams do not have an automix, and the automix on a Zoom sucks. The automix on a 5D is marginally better, but again - Production has dumped unreasonable expectations on you. The words you need to use with them are this:

 

"It is not technically possible to monitor and mix various vehicles in motion, and deliver a quality product that matches between vehicles. For matching and similar quality in post, all vehicles should be set up in the same way, audio direct to camera. In all instances, this situation is NOT OPTIMAL for sound, and post production should be aware that I (as mixer) am delivering the best option to them that I can."

 

This does not say (and you should never say) that you are *incapable* of mixing this, but that the technical and physical limitations of the situation are not conducive to audio. This is not an audio problem, this is a production limitation upon the audio.

 

As for the restaurant - Lavs for all, put your boom on a stand pointed in the general direction of the table / group of talent, a convenient light stand will indicate a safe place for the boom to live. Leave that open for air, panned center (4 talent each panned L/R) and the boom maybe 10 db down since it will just be a fill track anyway. Your ears will be the best indication you have for this, and chances are... If your mix sounds decent, it will probably make it to broadcast. Other than that, at the restaurant, park yourself in a booth when they are all wired up, and relax and monitor! There will certainly be a lot of screwing around from the camera department with that many cameras... You do NOT want to be the guy constantly in their frame. Go hide with your bag, they will be very appreciative.

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Download the freq finder app.  It'll save your ass with the wireless freqs.  For the car stuff you'll need to have a recorder in each car if they do it at the same time.  If it's 1 at a time then that's pretty simple.  The 8 people at once is easy once you get everyone mic'd up. The mix is less important for reality if they have the iso's, but giving a mix will still help post. Just remember that you are only one person and cannot be at 2 places at once.  So if people go in different directions and cameras follow you only can go with one camera.  Pick one from the start, generally whomever A cam is and stay with them.  Make sure the producers know this.  Assume that they are all idiots and don't know what the hell they're doing (do this nicely).  

 

And be stern but fair, especially with talent (you'll want to punch atleast one of them before the day is over).  

 

Don't get bullied into anything.  

 

Nicely tell camera ops to do their job and you'll do yours.  They like to think they know about audio.

 

Remain professional and nothing personaly it's just a job.

 

Most important.  Your gear rate.  If you are getting the gear, you're looking at about 750 a day just for the wireless and recorder alone.  Do not forget this.  Gear is not free and you should not be giving it away.  I can't stress this enough. 

 

 

Figured I'd get in all of the things that are less technical as that has been covered.

 

Cheers

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It's a little saddening to read the expectations this production has for you. I would make it very clear to them that for the car audio they'll have to be happy with less than great quality because of their limited budget.

I agree with Matthew Freed about being in over your head. The reason is because there are so many red flags that you don't seem aware of. You don't seem prepared based on the questions you're asking and it also seems like you're not familiar with all of the equipment you'll be using.

Based on their limited budget, a solution to the car audio would be going direct to camera with a battery powered microphone.

Is there really no way to ask for more money to do the job properly? Sometimes on smaller productions when i'm told there's not a budget for extra things I really insist and magically they're able to afford it. They're just trying to save money, and when they realize the quality is crap, you'll get blamed for not doing it up to their standards. But if you explain the situation diplomatically and professionally you may find success.

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Some years ago I was asked to asses the audio on a doco shoot that was in post production and was in trouble.

 

Shot in India, during Diwali, with the emergency services. Much of the audio was shot by camera operator, or researcher, with no real sound recordist present.

 

They were worried about a lot of the sound, and rightly so. I could have made a list of all the things that could have gone wrong, and most of the stuff on that list would have applied to this shoot.

 

To cut a long story short, and to answer your question below - there was so little useable, understandable, sound, that in the end they scrapped the program altogether. They had had amazing access, and shot some incredible stuff, but the story was simply not there with little or no sound.

 

So - to answer your question again..... it could be so bad as to be unusable!!

 

Kindest regards,

 

Simon B

I am going to do to the best of my abilities whatever it takes to get sound.  Even if it has to be corrected in post.  How bad could it REALLY be?

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I agree with Matthew Freed about being in over your head. The reason is because there are so many red flags that you don't seem aware of. You don't seem prepared based on the questions you're asking and it also seems like you're not familiar with all of the equipment you'll be using.

 

 

Alex, I am actually very well versed with all the gear I will be using.  Also, people must understand my relationship with this production crew.  It is a very small crew, and I have worked with them on many gigs.  There is hardly post sound.  The editor does--to the best of his ability--some work on the sound in post, but very basic editing.  They all know the problems with sound, I give them solutions.  They are never unreasonable.  We are an extremely run-and-gun crew.

 

http://www.kelloggs.com/teamusa/#/teamusa/athletes/jake-kaminski.html

 

Check out that video.  I did all the location sound for it.  For those with good ears, you could probably tell there are some basic problems with the mix that were totally out of my control because I was not involved in post editing.  The conditions we shoot in are very fast paced, documentary style.  I am not going to complain, because I can always come through with good audio.

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" I give them solutions.  They are never unreasonable.  We are an extremely run-and-gun crew. "

you have been drinking their Kool-Aid,

and the giving will contiune...

no wonder they have unrealistic expectations... and they keep increasing...

" I am not going to complain, because I can always come through with good audio. "

I believe we call that the race to the bottom...

why don't you hire the people and equipment you need, and give that to them...

 

this I agree with Jim,  especially:

" the technical and physical limitations of the situation are not conducive to audio. This is not an audio problem, this is a production limitation upon the audio. "

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Surprised no mention of timecode. That is something that in this situation could save HOURS and consequently DOLLARS of frustration with post. Of course neither camera supports practical timecode which is another thing that should be addressed.

Yes, when mixing reality I try and provide the best mix my skillset and the situation will allow. The mix is for IFB, dailies, and as a guide track for syncing. When you have eight people jabbering at once, nobody is going to complain if you can't provide a broadcast ready mix. Though from the description I'm reading, I'm pretty sure this will never make broadcast.

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Much good advice above. I would question the scenario on why they have to have three cars driving simultaneously with six different cameras, and everybody in the car miked up. Be warned that lavs are problematic with actors (or participants) in cars, because of seatbelt noise. Often, plant mics like the CUB-01 or similar mics will be more workable. Road noise is a huge issue. Syncing is a huge issue. If cameras and recorders are not timecode-capable, drift will probably be a big issue. 

 

I'm all for cooperating with directors and camera crews on difficult shoots, but there's a point where you have to say: "guys, what you have planned places an enormous challenge on the sound department. If you can't hear the dialogue, the story isn't there." If their expectations are this high, they're going to have to budget for three recorders and multiple microphones, plus three timecode slates, and understand that even with a world-class sound crew, this would be a very challenging project. It's not possible to do this well for low money and limited equipment. My opinion is that one recorder will not hack it, not trying to get wireless from three cars simultaneously. 

 

The restaurant scenario is possible, assuming you have enough wireless mics and/or plant mics that could be hidden on the table. I agree with the others that an overhead boom (or two) would be nice to have just in case somebody else comes in, like a waiter, and also to capture room ambience. Hiding mics is a director decision. My memory is that an IDX battery will power 4 wireless and a 788 for about 3 hours, but a lot depends on whether it's continuous or stop-and-start. If it's indoors and stationary, I would try to at least power your recorder from AC and take the load off the battery. 

 

I'm still trying to figure out how they get two cameras in each car, and each car already has four people in it. How does the director know if the footage is good? How are the cameras mounted and powered? Why do all three cars have to run at the same time? Are they aware that the 5D's heat up and shut down after a certain amount of time? This whole show sounds very haphazard and slap-dash to me, prone to a lot of potential for failure.

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I implore you guys to watch the Kellogg's "Start Stories", the production company that filmed all those is the one I am working for and the one I am working with for this gig. If will be in a very similar fashion to the start stories. The problem is that there is hardly any post audio done which makes life very difficult.

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