Mix Track

[Denielle]

Ok. I am currently in a huge debate about the mix down track... I have searched the topics, and cannot find any answers, so I am bringing the conversation to you all. I am being told: Mix tracks are obsolete, and unnecessary. With poly wav files, it is no different for post to sync a mix or the ISOs, so it makes no difference for post or for dailies. It is our responsibility as mixers to provide excellent ISOs, so post has everything they need to put it all together. Mixing boom and wireless together is not ideal in any situation. Mix tracks may have had a purpose when we only had two to four tracks to record to... But now, with 8-12 track, ISOs are the way to go and mix tracks are a waste. I have tried to argue, mix tracks are part of what makes us sound mixers. It helps post. And more... But, I keep getting shot down. And, I can't say that some of the points this person makes, aren't logical. But, mainly, how could so many mixers be doing something 'unnecessary'. So, what am I overlooking? Or is this person right, that mix tracks are obsolete? Thanks all!!

[Michael Miramontes]

I'm with you on this one. However I think if you can deliver a solid mix track, which takes time to master, then you'll save post a lot of time and you'll be worth every penny you're charging. I've also been told a few times that ISO's are all they use in post. In my mind my mix should be just as good so I don't think it will hurt recording one and honing your skills. 

 

I think the answer to this does depend on the type of gig you're doing though. I'm sure the lower budget stuff will appreciate a mix track since they most likely won't have the budget or time for decent post. 

 

I had a well established/awarded mixer once tell me that "you live and die by your mix". So, I'll always provide one even if they don't ask for it and will do my best to make sure it sound great.

[Denielle]

I would LOVE to hear from some post people. I am being told mix tracks are not solid options in post, and are probably never used. Any post people with opinions??

[Jeff Wexler]

Our jobs as mixers is to provide the client with what they want. That said, we also are, at times, smarter than the client and need to suggest that what they really want/need is something a little different than what has been requested. The mix track is still very important but what that mix is has changed. I agree entirely that a simple mix of a lav and a boom (if both are being used on the same subject) is probably useless --- I have always felt this way. If multiple mics are being used to cover a scene (an open boom mic, a plant, maybe a wirless lav on the actor), a mix to track 1 that sounds good and is appropriate for what the camera sees should be done (and will always be useful for editorial). Do not let the fact of a polyphonic wave file confuse you. The poly file when synced WILL contain all the tracks you recorded including the mix track.

 

Most of what I have said applies to traditional narrative dialog recording. I seriously doubt that anyone in editorial (post) will be telling you they don't need a mix track on this sort of project --- by not giving them a mix, they will have to do their own mix with all your isos before they can even get to work cutting the movie. Now, on other sorts of jobs, whether it is simple interview or full on reality show nonsense, the mix track that you might provide may be useless in post. A mix in these situations may not even be possible. You would have to decide what should go into this mix: with multiple cameras and multiple "talent" and multiple isos, your mix can never be reflective or representative of the "scene" because there is NO scene, yet. All of this, picture and sound, needs to be discovered later in post most probably this will have to be done from the "iso" images and iso tracks.

[RPSharman]

I am writing about narrative projects.

More and more, post is rebuilding the dialog track from the ISOs, but it is by no means across the board. Not every project has the time and money to do this.

Even on a project which might rebuild every scene, a mix track is used for dailies, editorial, and a temp, sometimes long before the post sound team even get the project on a dub stage. A lot of independents use the temp to sell the project before additional money is spent on post audio.

So you're right. We should do our job as mixers. But they're right too. Clean ISO tracks, when required, are important too. It doesn't mean wire everyone and supply an ISO on every character, although I'm sure some post people would love it.

Perhaps Henchman can chime in, but more and more I find RRMs are not blending lavs and booms together, as many PSMs do on set within a scene, when it's appropriate. Bringing a character into a room, giving a line a little lift if the blocking or lighting gets the character beyond reach of the boom. It can easily make the scene better and remain natural with thoughtful mixing. I tend to hear that once one or the other has been chosen, then it is stuck with. It's why many of us choose not to "wire everyone".

Robert

[bmfsnd]

Danielle, it will depend on the project, time, and budget.  If the production doesn't mention ISO tracks during discussion about post, chances are they will run with the mix you give them.  At the very least, I try to separate the lavs and boom on L/R, so the editor has some flexibility using it as split mono tracks  (they can pan it later)

 

Sometimes in my agreement with bigger productions, with the budget/time for post audio, I hand in only the mix for dailies/sync. Once my check clears, I deliver the ISO tracks to post. 

 

When I edit dialogue, I usually have the picture lock (mix track) up there as reference, but always muted.  I end up starting from scratch with roomtone, fading and applying settings to each ISO track, and the tracks just start piling up.  Having the mix track above always acts as a guide in case I become lost, or if a crucial line caught off-mic is on one take, but not the other, etc. 

[Jeff Wexler]

A mix track done badly or including things which should not be mixed together by you, will not be useful to post. Again, what I am saying refers to narrative dialog mixes. If, for example, to make the dialog in a scene work properly you have to use a wireless in the beginning of the shot (too wide to boom) and then when close to the boom mic using that, then when walking to the door and exiting a plant mic is used, that's 3 elements, 3 isos. If you don't give them a mix for that scene, no one can even experience that scene, that dialog, until someone mixes those elements. Don't you think the sound mixer (you) should attempt that mix on the day rather than leaving it to an editor in post?

[Jeff Wexler]

"When I edit dialogue, I usually have the picture lock (mix track) up there as reference, but always muted.  I end up starting from scratch with roomtone, fading and applying settings to each ISO track, and the tracks just start piling up.  Having the mix track above always acts as a guide in case I become lost, or if a crucial line caught off-mic is on one take, but not the other, etc."

 

Hey, Matt, what if the mix track sounds great and works perfectly with the picture? If you have it always muted and consider it only a guide for your mix of the isos, aren't you missing something?

[berniebeaudry]

I work on a show that rarely if ever uses the isos I provide.  The video editors do the final sound mix from my split feed to the camera via wireless hop.  I put the host on channel one, and everyone else ( up to three wires) on channel two.  I iso everything and also record the same thing I'm sending to camera.  Just recently I started monitoring in mono and working on a good mono compatible two channel split mix.  Its a real ear opener for sure.  I'm still getting used to it.  Hopefully it will make the final product better as the video editors (by their own admission) are not the most knowledgable when it comes to audio.  They do ok, but when I hear the show on the air I'm missing that little bit of polish that could so easily be applied.  A little judicious eq here and there would really help but they don't do it.  I've offered to come to their edit suite and show them some things but they aren't having it.

[Denielle]

Jeff, yes, I do think attempting a mix is valid. But, me thinking it is valid and important, does not mean it is. However, I am appreciating the input and clarity, and passing it along in this debate. I really appreciate everyone's input on this, and look forward to reading more.

[Denielle]

And, thank you, Jim! Good to be back.

[bmfsnd]

Hey, Matt, what if the mix track sounds great and works perfectly with the picture? If you have it always muted and consider it only a guide for your mix of the isos, aren't you missing something?

 

I should elaborate. I mute the mix while working on the ISO's, periodically coming back to it, while going through the PSM or editor's notes. 

 

But you're right - if it "sounds great" and "works perfectly".  Most of the time, this is not the case. 

 

The mixes I receive are usually what was synced/cut up by the picture editor - so sometimes there would only be half a line, or I miss an off-camera line, or something needs to be re-timed or replaced (taking a better-sounding line from a different take). All of these situations can be best extracted from an ISO, so sometimes I need to start from scratch.

[John Blankenship]

Also, welcome back.

The critical element that hasn't been properly addressed here is, who told you this?

If this is an academic discussion with someone who doesn't pay your bills or who isn't in the post production chain, then they're just, plain wrong. Ignore them.

If the picture editor or producer is telling you this, then have a conference with them both and ultimately give them what they need.

In my experience, whether for a feature or television show, the first process is picture edit which focuses on pulling all the pieces of the story together. Many picture editors don't want to deal with a swarm of tracks, they want the quickest route to cutting the story together which typically means using the mix track.

On some TV projects, the editor may cut both picture and sound simultaneously -- which may entail using mostly iso tracks.

It boggles my mind that a picture editor would complain about the inclusion of a mix track, since getting rid of it on the timeline is as simple as a single stroke of the delete key.

If the person paying your bills, without benefit of discussing with post, is telling you to forego a mix track, write "producer requested no mix track" on your sound log and don't sweat it.

[Denielle]

Thanks, John. It is a fellow mixer, and a friendly debate. But, fellow mixer has never been asked for a mix track, and never been criticized for not having one. Which was another point he made. That would be another question for post people in this forum... What percentage of mixers, these days, provide a mix track?

[studiomprd]

" I am being told: Mix tracks are obsolete, and unnecessary "

by who (whom)..??

(I see JB noticed this, too!)

 

then I'd say consider the source.

If "they" are paying you, then follow their instructions.

as in: " If the person paying your bills, without benefit of discussing with post, is telling you to forego a mix track, write "producer requested no mix track" on your sound log and don't sweat it. "

the reality is, some projects will prefer all ISO's, (and lots of wires!) and expend the big three (time, effort, and money) in post.

many other projects, however will prefer and benefit from a mix track, with all the ISO's available for sweetening, and some projects won't mess with the double system recording (often the same big three reasons: time, effort, and $$) and just use the tracks (scratch, or otherwise) from the camcorder.

well said: " Many picture editors don't want to deal with a swarm of tracks, they want the quickest route to cutting the story together which typically means using the mix track....

--BUT--

On some TV projects, the editor may cut both picture and sound simultaneously -- which may entail using mostly iso tracks. "

 

" Even on a project which might rebuild every scene, a mix track is used for dailies, editorial, and a temp, "

still typical, but follow the customers directions...

" I try to separate the lavs and boom on L/R, so the editor has some flexibility using it as split mono tracks "

another option, but can also be screwed up if the editor isn't on-board with this...

 

" I agree entirely that a simple mix of a lav and a boom (if both are being used on the same subject) is probably useless --- "

exactly,  but that is, to me, not a mix track, rather, it is something useless, I would resist providing...

" on other sorts of jobs, whether it is simple interview or full on reality show nonsense, the mix track that you might provide may be useless in post. "

another special case where I would probably resist providing such a track... In fact these are "tracker" gigs., typically sound by the pound...

 

" A mix track done badly or including things which should not be mixed together by you, will not be useful to post. "

A mix track done badly or including things which should not be mixed together by you,  or lacking some necessary elements, will not be useful to post.

and: " the video editors ... are not the most knowledgable when it comes to audio. "

 

" aren't you missing something? "

like saving the big three: time, effort, and $$

 

" fellow mixer has never been asked for a mix track, "

what has 'fellow mixer' worked on in this career ??

 

" Sometimes in my agreement with bigger productions,... Once my check clears, I deliver the ISO tracks"

funny,  that sounds like a way to deal with smaller, potentially flaky productions..

[Michael Miramontes]

" fellow mixer has never been asked for a mix track, "

what has 'fellow mixer' worked on in this career ??

+1

 

I'll never forget a heated discussion with an editor because he didn't want to see my ISO's, only my mix track. I was use to doing the low budget gigs that were complacent with all ISO's. By not forcing myself to mix, and by starting off with an R-44 which didn't allow me to properly mix, I was developing a bad habit that I ultimately had to crack. 

 

Only delivering ISO's will only get you so far. Eventually you'll need to step up your game.

[RPSharman]

I guess it should be clarified.

Does this other "mixer", offering this advice, deliver narrative work this way, or are they doing primarily reality work? And can you call a person delivering only ISO tracks a "mixer".

It goes back to another discussion about being a "mixer" versus a "recordist". I don't consider a person carrying a bag and recording 8 ISO tracks and delivering a "mix" track to be actually "mixing".  Don't get me wrong, it's a whole other skillset which requires its own level of experience, and I'm not knocking it.  It's not mixing, however, it's recording or tracking, and is critical in some genres.

I would hope that every narrative editor and sound editor would appreciate (and insist on) a mix track being delivered.

I believe that these days most of us are delivering the mix plus the ISO tracks on the media we deliver. The assistant editors can choose which tracks to import to the editor's timeline.

Robert

[studiomprd]

" with an R-44 which didn't allow me to properly mix, "

more typically the Zoom H4n

 

" another discussion about being a "mixer" versus a "recordist". "

aka 'tracker'

[John Blankenship]

With all due respect, it doesn't matter what this other mixer does. They don't set the standards for the industry nor do they pay the bills.

As an argument it's all rather silly since, as I pointed out earlier, getting rid of an unwanted track in post is as simple as a single stroke of the delete key.

On the other hand, not having a mix track if the picture editor desires one, IS an issue.

[Denielle]

It is someone I respect, professionally, or I wouldn't be posting about it... So, that isn't really being called into question. I have stated that: it is the difference between mixing and recording. I remember that thread. But, even with ISOs, we do mix levels. I doubt any of us would set our levels for a scene and never touch them after. Still, it isn't quite the same as the mix down. But getting the ISOs mixed right is the first priority.

[afewmoreyears]

They're just tracks, I do both, mix and ISOs... if they dont want the mix track, don't use it... if they do... it's there...  Simple enough... Don't really understand the problem... or question... like the Ad says, just do it...

[studiomprd]

" even with ISOs, we do mix levels. "

IMO, that's not really mixing,  just riding the levels...

a bit different

[Jeff Wexler]

"But getting the ISOs mixed right is the first priority" only if your post friend wants a mix track. If they absolutely don't want it, then you are still the production sound mixer but working more like a recordist, a tracker. When we had only one track to deal with (and multiple sources to be recorded) we had to be both a tracker and a mixer in production. Now, with multi-track and mega-multiple sources to record, we must still be mixers and trackers (the mixer part of our effort produces the track 1 mix, the tracker part of us lays down all the discrete sources that went into our mix). This is the best of both worlds: when our mix is really good, track 1 can go right into the post workflow, first to the picture editor (who doesn't want to have to do a lot of sound/mixing work) and all the elements can go to the SOUND editor/mixer so they can do their thing.

[Denielle]

Thank you!

[Toy Robot]

And let's not forget that so much of this discussion hinders on the type of work being done. For example, when doing a reality or documentary shoot as a one man band, many times you physically can't mix. You gain stage properly, record ISOS and then have to boom while holding your bag. "Want me to mix? Hang on a second while I grow another arm."

 

So this is project or work-type specific in my opinion. If the person you're speaking to does a lot of the type of projects that don't physically allow them to mix (reality, etc.) then everything makes sense, because he/she will rarely have a request for a mix track and will never offer to provide one.

 

Of course all this changes when doing narrative work as others have mentioned above.