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Mix Track


Denielle

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Also, sometimes a high quality camera track doesn't happen. The red has terrible sound setup, and I have worked on a number of film projects, as well. I guess, unless it is a commercial or something where I know they are going to use camera sound, exclusively... I don't really see camera sound as more than very basic reference for syncing.

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Also, sometimes a high quality camera track doesn't happen. The red has terrible sound setup, and I have worked on a number of film projects, as well. I guess, unless it is a commercial or something where I know they are going to use camera sound, exclusively... I don't really see camera sound as more than very basic reference for syncing.

Not true in the HD Alexa world, which all commercials and a lot of TV is shot on, the scratch track is for cutting these days and not syncing only as in the past. They are cutting on set half the time these days. I have had more calls about the embedded sound track than Iso or mix tracks. They want it good from the start of post. Most only use the original files once the spot is locked. BTW, Red is not used in LA 99% of the time. When it is used, the DIT has to sync them with my sound and give that to post. 

CrewC

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" Don't people watching dailies or listening to Comteks know why sometimes they can't hear the people off camera? "

sometimes, they don't!

 

but Robert is getting into what I'd consider a separate, question and also an important one:  'what goes into the mix track?'

the basic choices being "all dialog" in the scene,, or only "on camera dialog"...

Edited by studiomprd
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I am being asked less and less to provide a mix track. When location multitracking became common, clients would ask for a mix on 1, boom on 2, wires filling out the rest. Now the majority of my clients just ask me to give them split tracks. An editor told me that preliminary audio editing / mixing can be done in AVID or FCP, they will do a temporary mix there if they want to.

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I am being asked less and less to provide a mix track. When location multitracking became common, clients would ask for a mix on 1, boom on 2, wires filling out the rest. Now the majority of my clients just ask me to give them split tracks. An editor told me that preliminary audio editing / mixing can be done in AVID or FCP, they will do a temporary mix there if they want to.

What do you feed to the camera Steve? What field are you working in?

CrewC

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"I am curious how and why only the mix would be turned in? I generally give post my poly wavs, which include mix and ISOs, and my sound reports. I understand if the editor chooses just the mix track to use. But, my friends argument was that all ISOs are there, anyway. So, the mix track is just one more track in the poly file. It didn't make sense to him. He was under the understanding that they were stuck with all of those tracks anyway."

 

The reason there are some who only turn in the mix track has its roots in the historical methods and procedures for syncing dailies. There were few if any systems in place in telecine that could deal with polyphonic files and even up to the present I believe there are editing systems that have to split up a poly file into mono files before it can make use of them. Another reason relates to the main focus of this discussion --- picture editors typically do not want more than one track to deal with and really don't want to have to mix (there's that word again) multiple tracks before getting to work on cutting the picture. One more reason, and this also goes back to the beginnings of file based production recording, is that some recorders could only do mono files or only poly files, mirroring (copying) routines were slow with some machines and there was a necessity to turn in at least one track for dailies syncing. There were quite a few sound mixers that ran two machines on the cart just to expedite being able to turn in more than one disk/card media (one machine could do DVD-RAM required, another machine didn't support DVD-RAM, etc.).

 

As far as being "stuck" with all those tracks, this is true with a poly file (the most common file format) but it is not a bad thing. The mix track is, of course, only one of those tracks, but as we have been discussing it here it is the most important track that is put to work immediately after we turn it in (with the additional tracks they are stuck with, the isos, coming into play later with sound editorial).

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For almost everything I do a mono mix as track 1 and ISO's as the rest. The mono mix is what I monitor (but I PFL the ISO's), it's what IFB receives, it's what camera scratch hops get, and it's what I hope picture editorial will listen to. Some jobs never make it to post sound, so I try to make the mono mix as good as possible for those situations. Even if it the project does make it to post sound, sure the mix track may get used and is a great thing to have. So viva la mix track.

 

From my experience as a dialogue editor (which I still do and did before production sound), if time allows, I almost always cut up the ISO's. Rule #1 from John Purcell's book "Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures" - "Whenever possible, play only one source of room tone at a time". Everyone should read this book, it's the only audio book I've found besides Jay Rose's books that have useable info.

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When I am multitracking, and I am asked to send a feed to cameras, I will send a mono mix to them. Lately on RED and 5D shoots, editors have told me not to bother sending a mono mix to cameras, they will use the slates to sync up the multitracking.

I work out of Nashville, TN. Here there are a variety of genres to work in, and the projects I work on that go multitrack are usually tv spots that are regionally or nationally aired.

Like many others have stated, a quick call to post production is all it takes to see what they would like to receive.

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Great discussion.

It was mentioned earlier that while mixing down to one track sometimes the lavaliers are potted all the way down. There's not always a need to open certain microphones and mix them in. My question is since we've established that ISO's are important for post production, and requested quite often, if you're monitoring your own mix on the day, how are you making sure the ISO's remain clean? Certainly if a PSM has a visual you may see if the seatbelt if it's touching where the lavalier is, but what about clothing noise or RF hits that are only heard if monitored by the ears?

I check periodically with PFL's and definitely make sure it sounds clean when they're first mic'd, but can foresee issues coming up if they're not being monitored while rolling. At this point if you had a great mix, would they just pull from that instead?

One more question purely from someone who doesn't know any better. If you're not providing ISO's and not giving post the opportunity to mix something of their own, are you taking work and pay away from someone? I'm under the impression that for episodic television the post team works at a very fast rate (like production), so the less fixes they make the more time is given to "sweetening" or improving other areas. But for narrative features is this the case? Would it be one less gig for a fellow soundie?

Thanks,

Alexander

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Thank you Alexander! I had meant to ask that. In regards to monitoring... What is the standard for making sure your ISOs are good?

 

Frankly, if I am monitoring my mix, and the elements I am using are clean, and the mix is good, I don't really worry about the ISO tracks outside of those times.  All the required bits are just fine, and that's all that's required as far as I'm concerned.

 

If the cast is wired, I will check the wires with PFL before we roll, if there has been "action" or if the cast has been away between setups, etc., just to be sure the lav hasn't come unstuck.  My boom op also keeps an eye out for such things.  But once we're rolling, I don't worry about monitoring the ISOs if I am not using them for that portion of the mix.

 

Robert

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As the Grand Daddy to all the multi tracking sound for picture mixers once told me, "When you PFL one track, you are not hearing 7 others". Jim Webb

 

He's right of course. Especially your mix track. All the PFL listening is done before I roll as a rule. I know what they sound like on each actor and have the levels all set and whatever little EQ ing is set as well. Like Robert and others, once we roll, I listen to the mix I'm working on and use each mic where it's needed and don't worry about it if I'm not using it for the main mix. I, like all of us, can't listen to everything at once and make any sense out of it. If an actor is beating on his chest when I'm not using his radio in the mix track it means little to me as long as the boom is getting it clean for the mix track. 

CrewC

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As the Grand Daddy to all the multi tracking sound for picture mixers once told me, "When you PFL one track, you are not hearing 7 others". Jim Webb

He's right of course. Especially your mix track. All the PFL listening is done before I roll as a rule. I know what they sound like on each actor and have the levels all set and whatever little EQ ing is set as well. Like Robert and others, once we roll, I listen to the mix I'm working on and use each mic where it's needed and don't worry about it if I'm not using it for the main mix. I, like all of us, can't listen to everything at once and make any sense out of it. If an actor is beating on his chest when I'm not using his radio in the mix track it means little to me as long as the boom is getting it clean for the mix track.

CrewC

In the context of the discussion this is really interesting. I agree with you and Robert. In a very oversimplified way, we care about the ISO's but also don't care about them (if we get it in the mix). "don't care" might be the wrong term...maybe don't mind?

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I am also interested in why there are conflicting opinions on mixing two sources of audio. That is what I find confusing. I agree in recording a mix track... Though, it seems to me a L and R may be optimal, keeping boom on one and lavs on the other... That is where I am still most unsure, as there seems to be two conflicting sides. Unfortunately, none of these points have turned my friend into a believer. But, I appreciate all of the insight. It makes me feel more confident that I am not doing something that is irrelevant or outdated.

 

Multitude of difference in the two techniques described. Joining boom and lav in a mix is a radically different procedure than combining boom and lav without mixing 'em. Just a little dab more lav at the appropriate moment can make all the difference. Similarly, a bit less can radically change the texture of the mix. I'd never just throw the two boom and lav tracks together without working the mix.

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+1 to both Robert and Crew's comments. The way you know your isos are clean is that that source IS clean when you bring it into the mix you are listening to. Now, if your mix doesn't involve those isos, and you're not listening to them, and you are counting on those isos being the better choice for the mix than what you ARE doing, that is a problem. 

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i work in post sound on mow's, tv series and films in montreal. from what i see these days, the picture editor gets all the sound but while they cut, they only use track 1 (boom) and track 2 (lav mix).

there is no more boom + lav mix being done. (i can't speak for reality or current affairs shows out there)

our dialogue editors will go through all the tracks (boom, lav mix, iso's) and choose what is useful for the dubs (or mixes if you prefer).

P.

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This has been by far the most illuminating thread I've read.  Thanks all for keeping this informative.

 

I'm of the new generation, moving in the opposite direction:  I started out recording ISOs only and I'm slowly learning what it means to mix.  At this point, for me, it's mostly about keeping only one mic open at a time, choosing the most appropriate one for whatever action is happening on screen, and keeping the levels consistent.   My main goal is to provide something that will help the editor and/or director know whether this take had usable sound (no distracting background noise, good coverage etc).  I suppose this is considered mixing for the dailies. 

 

To throw a new wrinkle into this discussion, I recently heard from an editor who told me they start their edit with the sound, getting something where the sound hangs together, and only then do they start to consider picture.   This process is helped by a decent mix.

 

Even when the editor uses a normal workflow of editing for picture first, it's still useful to have the picture editor be able to discard takes with audio problems before picture lock, and that is where the kind of mix I do comes in useful.

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having a picture editor that starts with sound is a rarity for us. i have come across so many picture editors working in tv series that don't give a poo about the sound and don't edit with sound in mind. thus limiting the possibility of sound helping to tell the story. very sad i must say. and a bad indication of the education of some of these editors.

P.

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That's what your ears are for, I often mix with my eyes closed, so that i can focus all of my energy on my hearing, and not distract myself with anything visual.

 

A couple of weeks ago, one of the grips poked me and said, "hey! Stay awake!"  I grinned and said, "my ears are wide open -- I hear better when I'm concentrating only on the track." 

 

My old pal Fred Jones, who hired me as a VO mixer in the late 1970s, used to slap me on the back of the head with a rolled-up newspaper if he caught me staring at the meters, hypnotized. He'd say: "Don't worry about the meters! You gotta listen!"  Wise man.

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I'm of the new generation, moving in the opposite direction:  I started out recording ISOs only and I'm slowly learning what it means to mix.  At this point, for me, it's mostly about keeping only one mic open at a time, choosing the most appropriate one for whatever action is happening on screen, and keeping the levels consistent.   My main goal is to provide something that will help the editor and/or director know whether this take had usable sound (no distracting background noise, good coverage etc).  I suppose this is considered mixing for the dailies. 

 

If the dailies mix is good enough, it can absolutely be used for the final -- and that's the way it was for decades and decades. 

 

I have caught a few editors pulling in all the tracks and keeping all of them up simultaneously in the mix during the edit! I always try to send an email on the first day with my sound report, to the effect of "channel 1 has the mono mix, which should work fine for your edit; the isos are there just in case you need them for a line or two." But... that's assuming they read emails. The experienced post crews, of course, don't have to be told this.

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I agree, there are points in a scene where the super concentration is where possible and perfect... And I love those moments. But, knowing what is in frame and what is not (even if we are just visually attentive for rehearsals - WHEN we get rehearsals) is very important. I believe that element is significant in our jobs as sound mixers. Once we know the blocking and scene elements, agreed, the ears are all that matters. These days, so much is improvised and rehearsals are being shot. Seeing that take seems very important.

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