Awesomely Awesome Sound

[chriskellett]

No there is not!  Your misusing the word bully.  Bullies use intimidation and threats of violence as their main tools.  No body is threatening anyone!

 

However, Shaming would be a much better word.  And, there is nothing wrong with shaming.  Shaming is what keeps people in line doing the right thing. Shaming is what keeps peoples moral compass pointed the right way. Shaming is what this next generation needs.  Letting newbies know that their older, wiser peers are NOT happy with something they are doing, is needed, how else are they going to correct their behavior?

 

For some weird reason, shaming is not considered politically incorrect, and as a result we now have an entire generation of youths, expecting everything for free, and returning nothing in return!!

-1 , not true in my book at all. 

 

Maybe it is the old punk rocker in me but I still to this day have an issue with this type of thinking.  I am a huge fan/believer of the DIY sprit and to the person who put this ad up in NY I say " hell yes , good for you, go for it".  There are plenty of people who are happy and content with the status quo, and that is great, good for them but I see no reason to "shame" people into getting back in line. Shaming/bullying is just what people with perceived "power" do to other people to make themselves feel better about themselves, moral compasses can be taught in plenty of other, more sane, ways.   

[daniel]

-1 , not true in my book at all. 

 

Maybe it is the old punk rocker in me but I still to this day have an issue with this type of thinking.  I am a huge fan/believer of the DIY sprit and to the person who put this ad up in NY I say " hell yes , good for you, go for it".  There are plenty of people who are happy and content with the status quo, and that is great, good for them but I see no reason to "shame" people into getting back in line. Shaming/bullying is just what people with perceived "power" do to other people to make themselves feel better about themselves, moral compasses can be taught in plenty of other, more sane, ways.   

 

+1

 

 AAS's reference to "creative destruction" prompted an edifying wikipedia read (he even included the link).

[studiomprd]

" Well, has anyone called him yet? "

I guess by now you have figured out, he has been here, on jwsoundgroup, since well before the poster was brought up...

 

As to rates,  I have not been talked out of my POV that less experienced folks can not command higher rates compared to more experienced folks, thus I read a bit of self-preservation into the experienced folks lecturing the newbies into charging higher rates cthan, in many cases, they can reasonably command.

 

and then there are those pesky (insulting?) lo-budget rates that the IA has been agreeing to for years;  (when organizing) they will accept any rate as long as H+W gets contributed

[Chris Woodcock]

I don't agree with you Mike I am a newbie in relation to you guys and I charge proper rates, I turn down the low paid stuff as they are unprofessional dont allow me to reinvest and dont pay my rent. If I did the crap gigs I wouldn't have been able to afford the nomad 12, zax radios ect.

My only business is sound and the fact this guy runs a poster company (which looks shit if his poster is anything to go by) shows he isn't making a living being a sound professional

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[studiomprd]

" I am a newbie in relation to you guys and I charge proper rates, "

but experienced in relation to others!

three cheers for you.

of course you may disagree, and do what works for you, in your situation...

but understand that there will be folks who will take those gigs you turn down, and you can not and will never prevent that...

 

sent from my computer keyboard using Windows-XP/Firefox-19

[Christopher Mills]

Gerard, posting that in my market in sight of 5d/7d toting amatuers (who know what that stuff costs)..

can get you robbed and killed.

[Richard Ragon]

" I am a newbie in relation to you guys and I charge proper rates, "

of course you may disagree, and do what works for you, in your situation...

but understand that there will be folks who will take those gigs you turn down, and you can not and will never prevent that...

 

.. And I take pride in knowing that those who do take those, will have a very bad experience.  A few more of those crap jobs (and a few broken or lost pieces of equipment later), they will learn NOT to take those gigs..

 

A hard lesion for them to learn to do the right thing.. And next time they will not be so willing to pay so dearly for uneducated producers.

 

-Richard

[studiomprd]

" a very bad experience. "

that is something different, but a part of the lo-no budget movie world...

charging these folks more (as if you could get more!) would not change the experience...

[Gerard-NYNY]

lol. i trust my gut and i know when to say 'NO" sometimes with good results.

 

i dont like sending sos text messages to folks that say: "HELP they are very torture mee."

 

the poster is off to a real graphics person for a revision. i know its a piece of shit.

 

most clients come in with their own good looking stuff.

.

i did the awesomely awesome poster on google docs knowing it will need work.

 

i rushed it out because a new client popped in with a poster for a nyc screenwriting conference , so i wanted to post the awesomely poster next to it. it had been in the works for some time. there's only so much you can do with the google docs online program.

 

i'll post the revision when its done. i treated myself like i would treat any client that comes in with a pos done on ms word that looks more like a document than a poster. the only difference was that i didn't cry that my masterpeice was being ruined.

 

here's a work draft of my polaroid pogo sticker business card (alternate file bc the .tif file wouldnt upload.  occasionally i have put it out as a poster.

[azw]

A thought: Perhaps a more memorable URL?

 

Keep up the good fight. 

 

azw

[Jeff Babb]

The other day I was looking to get a haircut.  I don't worry too much about how my hair looks so expensive haircuts are never on the radar.  I happened upon a coupon hanging on a bulletin board for a $6 haircut at a new barber shop.  I went in and got exactly what I paid for… a $6 haircut.  But that was perfectly fine.  That's all I wanted and that's what I got.

 

If I were to be producing a show and needed a hair stylist there's a pretty good chance I wouldn't hire this barber.  I would hire a stylist with the experience and equipment to do the job right.  I would also be willing to pay the appropriate amount for that experience and equipment.  Although the next time I need a $12 haircut (regular price), I'll probably go to this guy.

 

This thread came to mind as I was sitting in that barber's chair.  It seems that the service offered by the OP is a $6 haircut.  If all you really want is a buzz cut, why go to a stylist?

[Gerard-NYNY]

yup. i've been in this business for something like, 3 or 4 days maybe. i think i know what i'm doing by now. lol.

[Winston]

So your client, the loyal one who pays your rate, feeds you well, pays your cancellation fees, overtime, etc. etc. has to bid against another, shall we say, less generous Producer who can obtain sound mixing services in the same way one hires a dog walker.

No, I can't foresee any negative effects either.

[Hivemindaudio]

I do a lot of reading on here and not much posting. But I thought I'd add my two cents.

 

 

I never thought I would, but I agree with the senator, It's not really related to the original topic as Gerard has already pointed out he does it to drum up business and he isn't a newbie. But condemnation of newbies charging less from the vets does sound like self-preservation. It's unrealistic for a newbie to ask for the same money as a vet because at the end of the day they aren't going to provide the same service, so who wouldn't just hire the vet and get a better result? I'm not talking about intentionally undercutting or ridiculous low rates, just LOWER professional LABOUR rates for those with less experience.

 

I think it also comes down to the production, It's illogical to expect a professional wage on a low budget student or out of the directors pocket film. If you don't want to help at a reduced rate then don't, no one will blame you, but I don't see the point in scrutinising those that will.

 

There is no internships or working your way up in a TV network anymore (or at least not over here), so how else do you gain experience?

 

As for shaming people into submission, I was unaware this was 1940's German. If you need to shame someone into sharing your beliefs and find a need to correct their  "moral compass" it sounds like a weak belief and a fear of change. That's not to say I disagree with the belief itself I just don't see people as raised nails that need to be hammered down. 

  There's no right, there's no wrong, there's only popular opinion. - 12 Monkeys

 

As for the OP, originally I thought it was in the same league as a PA with a H4N on the end of a boom. I didn't think in any way, shape or form I would be defending it and I'm still not sure I agree with it, but I think the haircut analogy works. He's catering for a niche that already exists in the market, not creating a rival within the market. I'm not sure I would ever use that method of advertisement, but it's a creative industry and we are creative people. it's his business to represent the way he see's fit. I'm sure some people don't like me using a skull as my logo but that's the way I run my business.

[Chris Woodcock]

Your argument is null and void as you broke Godwins Law.......

I would be classed a "newbie" I have only been working 2 and a half years but I have only charged a vets rate. I respect and believe in my own ability to charge top rate. As a business (which is what we are) I hire my service and kit at what its worth, and my kit is bloody expensive.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[Richard Thomas]

Your argument is null and void as you broke Godwins Law.......

I would be classed a "newbie" I have only been working 2 and a half years but I have only charged a vets rate. I respect and believe in my own ability to charge top rate. As a business (which is what we are) I hire my service and kit at what its worth, and my kit is bloody expensive.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

I thought Godwin's Law was proven to be correct here

 

I'm at a similar level, but if I'm free and the production doesn't seem completely mad- I'll do self-funded stuff, shorts etc if they can cover my equipment rate and pop someone a few quid to boom.  And I've met some nice people and got some proper jobs out of it (and even paid a few bills).  I wouldn't go out of my way to advertise this, though.

 Corporates, TV, I'm at the same rate everyone else should be charging.

[studiomprd]

" has to bid against another, shall we say, less generous Producer who can obtain sound mixing services in the same way one hires a dog walker. "

what are you saying here, exactly ?

you think my clients are going to bid their usual rates, but knock off a bit of my rate for sound ??

I don't think so.  My regular clients are not going to join the race to the bottom.  They will let the low budget shoots go to the low budget production companies, who are paying everyone on the crew way less, and using cheaper alternatives for everything, to charge a significantly lower rate for the whole gig...,

[Chris Woodcock]

I thought Godwin's Law was proven to be correct here

There is a general understanding on internet forums that you stay away from it. Once Godwins law has been reached the argument has gotten to the point of silliness i.e his quote about 1940's German was moronic. Besides Nazism came in long before 1940 ;-)

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[Winston]

" has to bid against another, shall we say, less generous Producer who can obtain sound mixing services in the same way one hires a dog walker. "

what are you saying here, exactly ?

you think my clients are going to bid their usual rates, but knock off a bit of my rate for sound ??

I don't think so.  My regular clients are not going to join the race to the bottom.  They will let the low budget shoots go to the low budget production companies, who are paying everyone on the crew way less, and using cheaper alternatives for everything, to charge a significantly lower rate for the whole gig...,

I'm saying that when you lower your rate and work for less than the local going rate (whatever that is) you are also penalizing the clients who pay you well.  They are competing in the marketplace as we are.  They are getting underbid by companies that can bid lower because they pay crew less, demand longer hours and wait months to pay you.  By working for less, you are forcing your good clients to join in the race to the bottom.  

I'm glad you don't have that problem where you are.  I'm glad things are good in Hollywood.  But I think you are the exception.   I live in Philly.  I see it happen all the time.  My good clients bid on the same spot against lowball companies who then call me and ask for 12 hour days or flats. 

It's simple economics.  All the price pressure is downward unless you have something like a union in the mix holding standards.  And we don't.

[RJBerto]

I'm saying that when you lower your rate and work for less than the local going rate (whatever that is) you are also penalizing the clients who pay you well.  They are competing in the marketplace as we are.  They are getting underbid by companies that can bid lower because they pay crew less, demand longer hours and wait months to pay you.  By working for less, you are forcing your good clients to join in the race to the bottom.  

I'm glad you don't have that problem where you are.  I'm glad things are good in Hollywood.  But I think you are the exception.   I live in Philly.  I see it happen all the time.  My good clients bid on the same spot against lowball companies who then call me and ask for 12 hour days or flats. 

It's simple economics.  All the price pressure is downward unless you have something like a union in the mix holding standards.  And we don't.

This is a good point!  In all the rate talk going on between here and some of the facebook groups, I haven't seen anyone bring this up. +1

[studiomprd]

" I'm glad you don't have that problem where you are. "

sez who ??

 

"  My good clients bid on the same spot against lowball companies who then call me and ask for 12 hour days or flats.  "

this is somewhat different, and interesting; it has to do with one's own rates...

If for example, one is a $500/10 mixer with a $400 kit, that applies pretty uniformly to all "clients", -- unless (rare!)doing a personal favor for a regular client who wants to bid lower, and is getting similar favors from the rest of their regulars, and a lower margin themselves...

Edited May 30, 2013 by studiomprd

[VASI]

I know many many lone wolves be happy to work for 100 euros plus equipment.

It's a personal choice that. You can't do anything and you can't say nothing about this.

 

Why are the client paid you that "500/10 plus 400 kit"? Why are you "500/10 plus 400 kit"?

Have anyone try to understand the simple route of "experience-quality-knowledge"?

 

If you have that triangle (experience-quality-knowledge) and you are working for 100 euros, sorry it's your path.

If you don't have that triangle and you are working for 100 euros, so it's different story.

 

Sorry mates but two years now I started to think all of that and especially "why are these colleagues working for that rate?"

 

Upcoming to my question? Why are the client paid you that "500/10 plus 400 kit"?

Because is you. You have a knowledge. You have a experience. You have a quality.

You pass a different philosophy about aesthetic in dialogue. And the client I like it.

 

I can't be against "awesomely awesome sound". It's he/she path for the life and for the business.

 

Now if someone have 20+ years of "experience-quality-knowledge" and working in my rate-area maybe start to re-think some things.

[studiomprd]

" "500/10 plus 400 kit" "

just round numbers for example purposes

[VASI]

I know Mike. Don't worry.

[Mario Cardenas]

My rate fluctuates according to how much I've been working lately and I'm more likely to cut deals in January here in the Boston area than at other, busier times of the year. The guy seems to have nailed a niche market, but perhaps a billboard is not the best way to go-unless it's just outside a coffee shop where producers/camera people hang out.