Doc Post vs Feature Post

[Tim M]

Considering LOW BUDGET feature and documentary film making, what are the main differences considering post and/or audio post specifically? I'm wondering specifically about the distribution process. Does M&E take place in doc's as well? I have post lo budget feature experience but not as much in the doc realm. So differences in:

 

Dialogue edit (obviously no ADR)

SFX (Most PFX I assume)

Design(Mostly PFX again.)

M&E and then to distribution.

 

Just wondering what requirements are different between the two....like does Germany for example accept a doc on different quality control requirements than a feature...I assume it does, but I have no idea.

 

What issues have you guys had with the between the two? Thanks postmen. 

 

 

[Rick Reineke]

I'm not an authority on this but I would assume Germany to be EBU/128 loudness. At this point, most docs for USA broadcasts, PBS and others (usually) specify submissions to be @ ATSC/A85. Always check with the broadcaster for submission requirements.

 DVD, BD and web based.. YouTube/Vimeo have no 'real' standard level. I mix DVD, BD at around (not exceeding) -6dBFS peak with slight compression and peak limit..  a little hotter for web content.

I usually deliver to the client a 5:1 or stereo mix; 2 track Dialog/M&E and Dialog, S/FX and Music stems. Or so requested.

[Marc Wielage]

Considering LOW BUDGET feature and documentary film making, what are the main differences considering post and/or audio post specifically? I'm wondering specifically about the distribution process. Does M&E take place in doc's as well? I have post lo budget feature experience but not as much in the doc realm.

 

I'd say ask the distributor for their deliverables contract and spec, and proceed accordingly. I think most documentaries are routinely subtitled throughout, but if there's a narrator, I don't see why a narration-free "Foreign M&E" version couldn't be created that would give the foreign TV station/network/distributor the ability to drop in the local language. They may also want a version with all dialogue, music, and effects split out on stems anyway so they can drop the volume of the interviewee dialogue and overlay it with a translation, which is done sometimes. 

[Bondelev]

Marc is correct. They will want splits and a "minus VO" version. They will want the minus VO version to without the music dips, so be sure to set up your mix so that it is easy to remove those. A friend recommended to me a smart choice, create a separate master fader for those moves so you can simply turn off the automation.

[Philip Perkins]

Marc is correct. They will want splits and a "minus VO" version. They will want the minus VO version to without the music dips, so be sure to set up your mix so that it is easy to remove those. A friend recommended to me a smart choice, create a separate master fader for those moves so you can simply turn off the automation.

I would not take this as being universally true, because it isn't.  Most PBS shows and many cable docs are not required to delivered anything undipped, and often there is just a full mix (LtRt or not) and a mix with the narrator turned off.  Since many docs do not have a narrator (all verite etc) then the chan 3/4 mix on the master is often the same as what's on 1/2.  Usually a filled M+E isn't in the deal either, and often the stereo NDME splits and the 5.1 stems are handed off and forgotten until a cut-down needs to be down.  But as has been said here many times, you MUST ask for the delivery spec before you agree to start work--often this request will be the first time the filmmaker has thought about this issue.  There are all kinds of weirdo combo international distro deals now, and you may find yourself having to make separate mixes to diff. standards, esp re peak levels, as well as different deliverables, including all the undipped, etc etc sorts of crap the USA commercial networks demand as a matter of course.    BTW we DO do ADR sometimes in docs (Shhhh! Don't tell anyone!).    There can be lots of extra SFX and ambiances added, since doco filmmakers often have no time or inclination to get any of that on location, and what they do get is usually mono and very lofi.  We spend a lot of time w/ sfx adds to make you think they are from production, but in truth they are very often not.  In USA docs music is usually a simpler affair than a feature, usually delivered as a stereo mix, maybe with some splits but also maybe not due to budget constraints.

 

philp

[Mark Orusa]

Low budget documentaries and PBS are two things I don't expect to hear in the same sentence. The kind of documentaries my local PBS channels air are very well made and obviously have high budgets (Frontline, American Experience, Ken Burns stuff, etc).

 

With anything low budget you'll be working for the producer, meeting his/her requirements as far as sound design, SFX, mixing, and delivery are concerned. Often the producer is also the director, DP, camera operator, sound recordist, etc. If they even have a distributor when they are in audio post they are doing better than some.

 

I'd say do what you think is right without providing more than what you are being paid for. You won't be doing yourself or anyone else a favor by selling yourself short.

 

Mark O.

[Jay Rose]

I've done plenty of low budget docs that have made it to PBS, and my experience has been like Philip's. They realize that a lot of the effects are PFX (or faked PFX; I won't tell them) and can't really be pulled from the dialog, and seem happy with a mix and mix-minus, plus a separate d track for fades and to give to the translators. Unless there are a lot of bgs added in post, they don't even want to consider them separately.

 

The cable networks, on the other hand, have been known to ask for full, minus, a separate minus-music for promos, and sometimes split oc/vo dialog for fades. But I also tend to do a lot more sfx sweetening on the cable docys; they want them more exiciting.

 

Everything's always spelled out in the contract spec. PBS has theirs online so you can check.

[Tom Visser]

I just finished a low budget PBS (prime time) doc myself - production side that is.  Camera man was wondering why we were using a snake instead of hops... well 'er, that producer guy over there didn't want to pay for it?...  no recorder.

[Marc Wielage]

PBS' specs are at this link:

 

http://www.pbs.org/producers/TOS-1-2010-Submission-to-PBS.pdf

 

but there's nothing there about M&E or stems or anything like that. I know of cases where networks came back to the producers and asked for a version with a D&E / Music split, so they could use the D&E portion (with as much PFX as possible) to edit together promos without the embedded music. Again, that's all part of the discussion you have to have with the distributor/network/channel about deliverables.

[Philip Perkins]

Low budget documentaries and PBS are two things I don't expect to hear in the same sentence. The kind of documentaries my local PBS channels air are very well made and obviously have high budgets (Frontline, American Experience, Ken Burns stuff, etc).

 

With anything low budget you'll be working for the producer, meeting his/her requirements as far as sound design, SFX, mixing, and delivery are concerned. Often the producer is also the director, DP, camera operator, sound recordist, etc. If they even have a distributor when they are in audio post they are doing better than some.

 

I'd say do what you think is right without providing more than what you are being paid for. You won't be doing yourself or anyone else a favor by selling yourself short.

 

Mark O.

Check Independent Lens, American Masters, POV, etc etc.  I've worked on many films for those series, and they were ALL very budget challenged.  Pretty much everyone working for PBS is, except Ken Burns.

 

philp

[Bondelev]

Correct, it varies drastically by network. NatGeo International has the most stringent requirements on splits that I have seen, including "no production sound in the center channel" (I wish I was making this up; they want only VO in the center). PBS has the least stringent (probably because they do not distribute internationally directly). I have never been asked for a filled M&E on a doc for anyone, ever. 

 

You may be asked for splits long after turnover, as they may find additional distribution at a later date, or they may be needed for reedits. It's not any more work for me to create them, it's just a more complicated signal path. So I make them anyway. As for FX, it depends on the style of the show, generally I add BGs more than  FX to smooth the production track. But some shows are very demanding for FX. Spot with the clients, and let them know if it seems as though their expectations are not realistic within your budget. 

 

[Marc Wielage]

Correct, it varies drastically by network. NatGeo International has the most stringent requirements on splits that I have seen, including "no production sound in the center channel" (I wish I was making this up; they want only VO in the center).

 

Not even PFX?  Yikes...

[Philip Perkins]

Not even PFX?  Yikes...

No PFX in the C for sure, and the specs I've been given from Nat Geo wanted all dialog and VO (that would be revoiced for foreign) in the C, absolutely NO dialog other than ambient BG stuff in the L/R and no sfx etc at all in the C.  PBS actually DOES do international combo distro deals--I've been part of them  (like with diff. specs even).  +1 for making all the splits when you mix: just because the filmmaker may not ask for them them at that time doesn't mean they won't be back when they have to reversion for a foreign sale or to fit the format of one of the doco series.  I HAVE done fully filled M+Es for docs, and yes, the Nat Geo deliverables are generally the most labor -intensive I've come across (to the point of turning some of that work down--too many deliverables for too little $$, incl diff peak spec for the stereo/LtRt and for the 5.1 mix).  These NatGeo docs, with the huge deliverables lists, are actually low-budg productions--lower today even than a few years ago even, and most of my director/producer clients that were doing them stopped doing them--too much trouble for almost no money.

 

philp