Lavalier mics with low ambient noise

[RogerBansemer]

Roger,

 

If you have ruled out a headset (and I understand why you find the option unattractive), I think that you need to learn about directional microphones (cardiod and supercardiod) and start thinking about how you can shoot your show in a way that accommodates one.

 

On your sample show and on some of your material on YouTube, it seemed fairly clear to me that you could accomplish the shot with a directional microphone mounted on a tripod just outside the frame or mounted, but disguised, close to your body. What I'm trying to say is that if you want good sound, don't just look at the microphone, but also at what you can do with your camerawork to contribute to good sound.

 

I think you'll find Jay Rose's book very good at helping you to expand your thinking about the sound recording/video recording relationship.

 

As someone who comes at this from the visual side more than the sound side, and has learned that they are of equal importance, let me suggest that you might find it really helpful to hire a professional location sound recordist for a couple of days to help you get your sound sorted out and make specific recommendations for getting the best sound for your show and budget.

 

Good luck.

Thanks for those suggestions. I have on occassion used my shotgun mike near me mounted on my easel along with my lav mike only to find that the audio was almost identical. I have been on the lookout for a long time to try and get some hands on help and although we've had some, everyone seems to so far to have not been of much help and most want to mostly impress me with stories about how I need to have a sound man at each shoot, etc just to take care of sound. Unfotrunately, PBS pays nothing for shows. That's right, nothing. So hiring people to follow us around isn't an option either and we've managed pretty well. I'm just always on the hunt to make things better and easier. I am looking forward to getting that book.

[Jay Rose]

My ears were burning... and here I thought it was because of a current client's lousy choice in music...

 

Roger, from a post point of view you're making things worse by using a compressor and 'vocal rider'.

 

With very few exceptions, those things aren't smart enough to tell the difference between your voice and the ambient noise. If they hear your voice loud, they turn it down. If they hear your voice soft, they turn it up. If they don't hear your voice at all (during pauses, even between syllables sometimes), they turn up the ambient instead.

 

The exceptions are compressors that let you fine-tune the knee as well as the threshold, and have a gate-hold function below a certain level. I don't know of any in that category that are cheap and easy to use.

 

FAR BETTER to follow the other advice in this thread and get the mic as close to your mouth. If head-turns are a problem, wear a head mic. Something like the E6 sounds great and isn't distracting on-camera. 

 

And while you're at it... if you're using conventional wireless for the lav, make sure the transmitter level is carefully adjusted. You have to do this at the body pack while the mic is properly rigged and the talent is talking. Too low a level and you get transmitter noise. Too hot and the limiter in the body back acts like a compressor, bringing up the ambience.

 

In fact, if there's any way you can block for it, ditch the wireless. Wear a wired head mic. Much better sound (unless you're paying $$$ for the wireless rig), and only one adjustment to worry about, and that one's on the camera. Cheaper, too.

[Jay Rose]

 PBS pays nothing for shows. That's right, nothing. 

 

That's a whole different thread. 

 

I've done a bunch of PBS shows and interstitials and gotten paid, nicely, for the audio post. I doubt the production companies were being generous out of their own pockets. If anyone else has something to chime in on this, please copy this to a new thread and let's talk.

[Stewart]

That's a whole different thread. 

 

I've done a bunch of PBS shows and interstitials and gotten paid, nicely, for the audio post. I doubt the production companies were being generous out of their own pockets. If anyone else has something to chime in on this, please copy this to a new thread and let's talk.

 

http://www.pbs.org/producing/funding/

 

Some shows, including some that have a fairly wide audience, are funded by commercial sponsors who think that the show will attract customers, or by organizations that produce a show on the basis that they will make money from the sale of other products, such as books, or by organizations that just want to promote their brand. While I don't know the funding details, note that Jacques Pepin's cooking shows are supported by a large number of companies that make cooking equipment, and that Cooks Illustrated, which also makes PBS shows, is far and away the most successful cooking magazine in the U.S. with both a paid on-line version and a very successful book publishing arm.

 

It is quite possible that Mr. Bansemer is giving his show to PBS stations for little or no money, perhaps because he enjoys doing it and/or because it helps sell his paintings and workshops.

[RogerBansemer]

That's a whole different thread. 

 

I've done a bunch of PBS shows and interstitials and gotten paid, nicely, for the audio post. I doubt the production companies were being generous out of their own pockets. If anyone else has something to chime in on this, please copy this to a new thread and let's talk.

Here's how it works with PBS. Unless you're doing some big show like NOVA or such, PBS does NOT pay for shows. What the producer gets is one minute of air time at the beginning and end of each show that he or she can sell and keep whatever they get for that air time. A sponser has to have that spot on all 13 episodes and is limited to 15 second spot. So you can sell 4 spots at 15 seconds or more spots at less than 15 seconds. If you are clever enough to not only film and produce a show but also have the talent for going out and selling, then you can make out. Most don't. We've gotten a few sponsors but it's been minimal and we can manage it because we do all the work and don't have to pay an editor $300 an hour. (which some get by the way or more)

We do the show because we want to and love doing it and aren't in it for the money. I know that sounds strange to most.

[Stewart]

Roger, none of which changes my view that you should read Jay's book and then hire a professional location sound recordist for a couple of days to help you with recording sound (which should include suggestions on how you set up your shots) and equipment recommendations. These will not only save you a lot of time and aggravation in the long run, but improve the quality of your shows. I have no doubt that you can find sound people in Florida who will give you straight-up advice on these issues in exchange for a reasonable two-day fee. If it is really the case that you have only run into people who want to convince you to hire them for each shoot, either you are not making your situation clear or you are talking to the wrong people.

[atheisticmystic]

I'd sure like to get a mic that will suit us better so we won't constantly have to deal with so much post audio trying to get rid of unwanted sounds.

 

 

 

I'm naturally soft spoken and keeping up volume on my voice for an hour isn't possible as the program is very conversational ...

 

 

 

 My wife has on the headphones and can alert me to wind noise, etc but anything more technical for her is out of the question other than just monitor my audio.  

 

 

 most want to mostly impress me with stories about how I need to have a sound man at each shoot, etc just to take care of sound...

 

Roger, the way you're stating what you absolutely will not do pretty much guarantees mediocre sound...good sound happens when applying the proper practices. Those sound people were NOT trying to impress you, they were trying to INFORM you.

 

Without jargon:

 

It's all about maximizing your voice while minimizing EVERYTHING else, and heres how you do it:

 

1-The microphones you choose

2- Where you place the microphones

3-Controlling the volume of your voice

4- Controlling the external environment

 

Since you don't want  to pay a professional to array the right microphones (consider it "advertising cost" for your business, thats all your show really is, an advertisement), the free comments above are suggesting you place the microphone close to your mouth (#2), and raising the volume of your voice (#3).

 

You want to keep things easy and free ( fast and cheap ), so that means you've already prohibited yourself from getting what you actually want (good).

 

Harsh but true,

Steven

[Stewart]

Roger, the way you're stating what you absolutely will not do pretty much guarantees mediocre sound...good sound happens when applying the proper practices. Those sound people were NOT trying to impress you, they were trying to INFORM you.

 

Without jargon:

 

It's all about maximizing your voice while minimizing EVERYTHING else, and heres how you do it:

 

1-The microphones you choose

2- Where you place the microphones

3-Controlling the volume of your voice

4- Controlling the external environment

 

Since you don't want  to pay a professional to array the right microphones (consider it "advertising cost" for your business, thats all your show really is, an advertisement), the free comments above are suggesting you place the microphone close to your mouth (#2), and raising the volume of your voice (#3).

 

You want to keep things easy and free ( fast and cheap ), so that means you've already prohibited yourself from getting what you actually want (good).

 

Harsh but true,

Steven

 

Roger, you have gotten some really good advice here from several people who really know what they are talking about (not including me - the other people who have responded know a lot more than I do). Steven Deichen's comments may be harsh, as he says, but he has really cut to the chase.

[RogerBansemer]

Roger, the way you're stating what you absolutely will not do pretty much guarantees mediocre sound...good sound happens when applying the proper practices. Those sound people were NOT trying to impress you, they were trying to INFORM you.

 

Without jargon:

 

It's all about maximizing your voice while minimizing EVERYTHING else, and heres how you do it:

 

1-The microphones you choose

2- Where you place the microphones

3-Controlling the volume of your voice

4- Controlling the external environment

 

Since you don't want  to pay a professional to array the right microphones (consider it "advertising cost" for your business, thats all your show really is, an advertisement), the free comments above are suggesting you place the microphone close to your mouth (#2), and raising the volume of your voice (#3).

 

You want to keep things easy and free ( fast and cheap ), so that means you've already prohibited yourself from getting what you actually want (good).

 

Harsh but true,

Steven

I appreciate your comments and I know everyone is trying to inform me. It's appreciated. I've already taken advice, ordered that book etc. But there are a few things. It's not that I do not want to pay anyone for advice to help in a set up. I don't know anyone and I have in the past spent lots and lots of money on people that knew less than me with the assurance that they knew everything there was to know and ended up with nothing. And it's not that we've set ourselves up for failure. We've done over 60 shows all of which I think are pretty darn good. They all have to pass a technical evaluation by PBS which they have. Even though I've said that I'm not technical in this field which I'm not doesn't mean that we're out there with an iPhone trying to film a show. That's not the case.

I think everyone has problems with mics and I try and learn what I can all the time. It's forums like this that really help. Really my only question that got this started was as you said, controlling the external enviornment and that isn't always possible.

I simply thought having brought this up on the Vegas forum that there was some type of mic that would be superior to what I have that I didn't know about.

I'm impressed with all the comments and help here. It's really great to have so many people chime in. Thanks everyone but it's a bit unfair to label us as "fast and cheap" and that we  "guarantee mediocre sound" in the way we are working. It's just not so. Man... that makes me feel really bad. Almost sorry I asked the questions.

[RogerBansemer]

Roger, you have gotten some really good advice here from several people who really know what they are talking about (not including me - the other people who have responded know a lot more than I do). Steven Deichen's comments may be harsh, as he says, but he has really cut to the chase.

Well, I don't know how this got so far off track. I simply asked if there was one lav mike that might be better in eliminating ambient noise. That's it. Now I'm having comments like the one above that say "thats all your show really is, an advertisement".

How rude. I'm out of here...

[atheisticmystic]

My apologies to Roger, and every member here. My intention was not to chase anyone away.

 

1-The good, fast, cheap, maxim was drawn form his own statements.

2- His show will result in website traffic where he sells DVDs. 

 

Coming to a professional forum for a free consultation with the "we don't make any money, we do it for our love of the project" approach seems a bit rude if you ask me.

 

Apologies again if my tough love approach was inappropriate.

Best,

Steven

[Jay Rose]

Folks, thanks for straightening me out about PBS. 

 

I've done promos and interstitials for them through production companies, and gotten paid like every other network.

 

I've done programs that went on their air and gotten paid, and didn't think much about where the money was coming from.

 

I've also done "IDs"... short "funded by" pieces where the advertiser put an awful lot into those ten or fifteen seconds, and gotten paid... again, by the production companies.

 

--

 

What I haven't done is produced stuff myself for PBS.

 

... and hope that I'll never have to. You money folks can deal with that stuff. I'm a soundie, and just want to make a few bucks for what I do contribute.

[Jan McL]

Jan said over in Simon's that she found that the DPA lavs (4060 series) actually picked up less ambience than the COS-11s, and those picked up less ambience than the B6. Interesting. You wouldn't think so. And I believe the Country B6 is considered a proximity lav too. Maybe because they are "proximy" you don't get the benefit unless they're right up at the throat? 

 

 

 

 

Sawrab

 

The specific mic that performed well EXT NYC was the 4071 that has a low cut and mid-freq boost, effective at reducing city truck and bus noise while retaining crispness through the clothing, relative to the other mics (B6 and COS-11D). My guess is they probably still ADR'd some of our worst EXT locations even with the DPA.

 

The throat is not an ideal spot for a lavaliere mic IMHO. Sounds--not unsurprisingly--throaty.

 

I never refer to any lav as a "proximity mic". Never heard that term until this thread. "Proximity effect" on the other hand...mic closer to source = more source less other stuff.

 

I have a couple red-band COS-11/B6's for shouters. The rest are grey (B6) and black band (COS-11D).

 

Having been recently personally laved with a headworn DPA mic, can say it sounded very "close" something I'd not particularly like for narrative work, but for stage speaking, by golly, it was seamless. Wonder how it would fare outdoors with wind...it would have to have a furry (Rycote Overcover) and probably look strangely obtrusive visually. Without significant wind protection though, it's a much less obtrusive mic to wear than one might imagine:

 

DPA 4066 feels very secure on the head. They also have one-eared models:

 

 

 

Countryman E6 is a bit smaller profile than the DPA:

 

 

Scrolling through I couple of your videos, Roger, I note sometimes when you're teaching I mostly see one side of your face. Something to consider since the Countryman E6 or DPA head worn mic will get you the best signal (voice) to background noise without going with a large-diaphragm hand held dynamic mic like the Shure SM58, designed to be used very near the mouth:

 

 

And I'm guessing it's important for you to have use of both hands when teaching.

 

The Shure SM58 is about $100. If you have noisy circumstances when interviewing a subject and not teaching (like the St. Augustine buggy ride were it shot at rush hour), this is something you could use then. It will take a bit of practice, trial and error to get the mic movement between you and your interview subject down pat, but... It does not require 48V power. Would certainly take the camera down to the store with you to determine if the mic generates enough signal to register on your device before buying.

 

Frustrating as it may sound and difficult as it may be to hear, fact is I don't think there is any mic going to do what you imagine within the constraints you mention. The DPA 4071 lav would get you less background than other lavs, but at $450-600 once you get all the correct mounts, power supply, and connectors...dunno if it's gonna get you where you want to be in the editing room.

 

Eric, invite him over to play with the mics you've got laying around...make Roger buy you dinner Maybe you can pick up a DPA 4071 somewhere to test, too. Hell, if you make the trip to Eric's, I'll send a DPA for you to try out.

 

Good luck, Roger!

 

[Edited to remove the word 'effect' for clarity & truth; thanks Mr. Blankenship for the good catch.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Jan McL

[mpsanos]

I'll throw in my 2 cents ... I've been working with a E6 directional, mounted in an ear mold and a shorter stem.

Head lines up at the jaw hinge and the head and shaft is against the face. Very discreeeet.

 

mike

[GrahamTimmer]

Pick locations with less traffic? Countryman head worn mic that attaches over the ear and puts the mic an inch away from your mouth. I think those two options would work very well for you.

[Marc Wielage]

I agree with the E6 advice.  Rent one and see if it'll work for your specific situation. If you can't rent one, buy it, use it and see if it works, and if it doesn't you can sell it fast on eBay. Good mic. 

[rb1138]

Do the E6s have any trouble with wind noise? Do they come with windscreens? They seem pretty exposed out there. 

 

 

 

Sawrab

[studiomprd]

" wearing a head set type mic wouldn't work as I don't want it to show near my face. "

deal with it.

[John Blankenship]

One of the big problems with a thread like this is the amount of misinformation mixed in - often within a post that contains basically good advice. The other issue is how easily a well-meant comment can be read as offensive.

Larry fisher's description of mic sensitivity will get you closest to understanding it. Eric Toline's wisdom is well worth heeding, as is Jan's generous advice and offer (with the correction that "proximity effect" more accurately refers to the tendency of a directional mic to have increased lower frequency response as the person speaking gets closer to the microphone).

As has been noted, the mics that come with the Sennheiser G2 series are of low quality and should be replaced asap. Also, as has been noted, the G2 C band (above 698mHz) is now illegal for use in the U.S. If the FCC ever diligently pursues enforcement (most likely if prompted by complaints from the major corporations that paid billions to purchase these "public" airways), it could result in confiscation and a stiff fine. The G2 B block is still legal.

If, when hiring a sound mixer, you had the results you mentioned, you either hired the wrong mixer, or didn't communicate your needs clearly, or some combination of both. You likely just hired the wrong person. Sound mixers, not unlike artists, come in a wide variety of skill sets and communicative abilities. Seek out someone with years of experience and a great attitude. Their rate will be higher but will be worth it.

Also, it would be to your advantage to deal with a professional location sound dealer -- what we refer to here as the "usual suspects" -- such as Trew Audio in Nashville -- rather than a " box house" such as B&H. Simply put, a box house exists to sell you stuff, whereas, the usual suspects exist to serve the sound community.

Again, you should try an E6 and Jan's advice and offer.

[Christian Spaeth]

I agree, a headworn mic would be my weapon of choice here. It will certainly deliver the best results you can get in your situation, Roger.

 

If budget is an issue here's a cheap (but really good) one:

 

http://oscarsoundtech.com/aboutus.html

 

There are some threads here about the manufacturer and many of us use their mics.

[chrisnewton]

Sony ECM 77. there's a good reason broadcasters use them for live hits, standups etc. My friend Don told me it "heard" less background sound. I was a bit sceptical.  I used one yesterday for the first time in a very long while as I don't do much broadcast work anymore. I brought my Senn. MKE2 and a Countryman EMW along (the 77 was part of the cameraman's kit), but after a test under identical conditions: same location, same placement (clipped on the outside of a shirt) and hardwired to the mixer, the ECM 77 did indeed pick up less BG. The EMW came in second, the MKE2 third. I preferred the sound of the MKE2 the best by the way. using a 442 and compensating with gain to make the 3 mics equal in  level via the meter. the 77 needed the most gain boost, the MKE2 and EMW were about equal. I was very surprised and I have no idea why this is so, but the 77 did indeed pick up the least background noise. Every other broadcaster with presenters on the riser used the 77 for live hits: CBC, CTV, etc. Interesting, and a big surprise to me. I'm pretty much a COS11, B6 guy, but might revisit the venerable ECM77.

[Simon Hayes]

^great post,thank you.

[studiomprd]

" " wearing a head set type mic wouldn't work as I don't want it to show near my face. "

you're hosting a TV program...

deal with it.

 

" Do the E6s have any trouble with wind noise? Do they come with windscreens? They seem pretty exposed out there. "

yes. yes. and yep.

 

you have come to a professional production sound forum,  most of us here make our livings in this business  while we tend to like what we do, we do it for our livelihood.  We have given you plenty of excellent advice for your, apparent, hobby (doing a television program)

[chrisnewton]

I just discussed the ECM77 issue with my buddy Don. he's the one who suggested the Sony mic for loud BG use. His theory: the 77 is far rom flat in it's frequency response (kinda SM58ish). Not a lot of lows or highs, so maybe this is why it seems to reject the background noises better. The COS11 for example is very flat right out of the box, that's why it sounds so good. Sounds reasonable to me.

Chris

[LarryF]

I just discussed the ECM77 issue with my buddy Don. he's the one who suggested the Sony mic for loud BG use. His theory: the 77 is far rom flat in it's frequency response (kinda SM58ish). Not a lot of lows or highs, so maybe this is why it seems to reject the background noises better. The COS11 for example is very flat right out of the box, that's why it sounds so good. Sounds reasonable to me.

Chris

Very reasonable.

LEF