efksound Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 It seems that Red is coming with a new fan speed algorithms to be make their camaras more "sound friendly" So instead of having the fans come on full blast they will get progressivley louder the longer the take is. For sure it looks better for short takes but for longer takes more than 3 minutes not so sure if that will be so much better... http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?97198-Epic-Fan-Speed-Sound-Algorithms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 I think the idea of having the fan noise dynamically increase, little by little, as a take progresses, is a HUGE step backwards in solving the damaging affects the chronic problem of fan noise from the RED has caused to the production sound recording. A constant low level noise continuously during a take, though still problematical, can be dealt with much more effectively than a dynamically changing background sound that increases as the length of the take progresses. I think it is much better the way it is now, when the camera gets in trouble on a long take the fans come on in such a dramatic and noticeable way that generally you can cut the take and cool the camera down. This is what we did on the last feature movie with the RED when we had very long takes. The fan noise was so pronounced that the actors would generally just stop performing anyway so there wasn't a problem cutting the take. With the new RED setup, at the end of the take I can imagine someone asking the sound mixer: "did the camera noise get a lot louder towards the end of that take... was that okay for sound?". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastermixaudiomedia Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 Great point. Makes me think of that statement about how cam dept. would freak if the recorder had flashing lights on it, the equivalent to the fan ramp-up would be the light getting steadily brighter as a take went on. BTW here's an application where Epic's fan noise WON'T be an issue: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 It seems that Red is coming with a new fan speed algorithms to be make their camaras more "sound friendly" So instead of having the fans come on full blast they will get progressivley louder the longer the take is. For sure it looks better for short takes but for longer takes more than 3 minutes not so sure if that will be so much better... You beat me to it, Eric! Yes, this is welcome news that Red has been diligently working on quieting their camera, and I think there's going to be a new quieter fan mod due out very soon. Important note for Jeff: Red exec Jarred Land says there's also a mode where you can keep the fan noise continuous if that's the preference for the sound department (and I agree with you on this). The important thing is that it apparently will not go into "leaf blower mode" any more, if I read their explanation correctly. Any way you look at it, if the fan noise is now even 10dB quieter, that would be a good thing. If it never goes louder than 25dB, that's manageable, assuming the camera is at least 6-7 feet away from the actors. Still, it doesn't help that the fan is on the front of the camera. I know of a recent film (one that's made hundreds of millions of dollars) where at least half the dialogue had to be replaced, partly because of camera fan noise. But that was shot about 18 months ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordi Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Would it really be so hard for them to just build in a big heatsink on the top and bottom... Say as part of the rail mounting system? Then the dang thing could vent its heat SILENTLY to the air, and maybe not need those jet turbine fans? As an added bonus, if the heatsink was partly hollow tubing with a connector, the random extra-useless camera PA could be tasked with pumping cool water through the tube from an ice chest. ANYTHING would be quieter than those fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Anyone who would propose that a cameras fan change volume (or sound) over the time of a take in really unclear on the process of making films. This would only make MORE work in post--really gnarly work since you'd now be having to deal with a RAMP in level instead of steady-state. Again--camera folks: stop helping me! philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Reilly Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Dynamically allocated fan transition: DAFT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Ramped fan speed, what a clever idea... That is, if footage was always shot continuously, always used as shot and never edited... Otherwise, you gotta be kidding! It sounds like something you'd read in the Onion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Hayes Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 I agree 100% with Jeff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 The post linked doesn't say anything about fan noise when not recording. The way it is now (in auto mode) the fan goes to leafblower mode between takes, which is bad enough when trying to locate other noise problems in set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toy Robot Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Agree with Jeff 100%. Marc I am at least glad to hear that there is an option for a steady fan speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macruth Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 The post linked doesn't say anything about fan noise when not recording. The way it is now (in auto mode) the fan goes to leafblower mode between takes, which is bad enough when trying to locate other noise problems in set. Having recently experienced it I can say that this is no small point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Hayes Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 These cameras are a pain in the ass but there are ways to deal with them. 1. Get to the rental house with your team during camera testing. 2. Learn how the fan system works (user menu can decide fan speed for idle and recording). 3. Negotiate with the 1st AC and let himher know that because the fan settings can lead to ADR they have to be your responsibility as Production Sound Mixer and have a dedicated member of your sound team learn the menu so you can quickly and efficiently liase with 1st AC on the set and manipulate the fan speeds according to conditions. 4. If the 1st AC is worried about running the camera on its lowest fan setting (25%),do a test and put a timer on how long it will run (with the air con in the camera test room turned off) before the camera overheats and the fan speed increases to 100%. Have him check the footage so he KNOWS by doing that the recording cannot be 'damaged'. Do the same timing with the camera fan speed on 35% so if your Director wants to run for long takes you have 2 options- the best for sound on normal length takes,and a compromise for long or multiple takes that gives the 1st AC confidence that the camera won't over heat. Set the camera's idle fan speed to 25% whenever you first go onto a new set to give you a window of opportunity to listen for any other noise issues in the background while the cameras set up.As soon as you have identified the other issues,turn the idle fan speed of the camera back up to the highest idle speed the camera dept will allow- Remember the higher the idle speed,the cooler the camera runs between takes,the longer it will run for during a take with fan speed on minimum (25%) before the camera heats up to the level which engages the higher speed. I have done 2 movies with Ridley Scott on Red Epics,and Ridley likes to run long takes and sometimes uses multiple takes without cutting if he feels it helps the actors.A few times we have had the loud fan speed engage and I agree with Jeff,that when that happens it provokes a natural cut in proceedings in much the same way a 'run out' would on 35mm,and my perception when it happened was this is how it was treated by director and actors. .I would prefer the risk of that happening every so often than having a fan speed varying throughout a take creating differences in background during the editing process within a quiet interior scene.Having a constantly varying fan speed is also,obviously,much harder to gate in post as the frequency is varying. What did we do when the noisy fan cut in with Ridley? Well,it happened while running the cameras on a warm interior on 25% recording speed and doing multiple takes within one clip.The cameras overheated at about 7 or 8 minutes.All we did was reset the recording fan speed to 35 % to deal with the enviroment and the requirements of that particular scene. What fan speed do we usually 'idle' the camera at? I would personally favour 100% to try and keep the camera as cool as possible as already mentioned but they are so damn noisy (like a hairdryer) the compromise that seemed to work with camera operators was 75%. I feel the fan speed on the Red's is very much the Production Sound Mixers responsibility (this is the reality unfortunately) and we must make that clear to the camera dept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 All great tips Simon thank you for your continued contributions here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Yes, thank you very much, Simon, that's great advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek H Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 First DIY'er out there to liquid cool a RED will get major brownie points! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 (edited) " I feel the fan speed on the Red's is very much the Production Sound Mixers responsibility " I'm sorry, but I cannot accept responsibility for someone else's toys, their use or their issues, although I do agree it is important to be knowledgeable, vocal, active and as helpful as possible in dealing with the sound issues of cameras. Edited March 29, 2013 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michiel Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Agree with above. What Simon Hayes says works only for large productions like a feature film. Unfortunately I can not always check and negotiate with every department what they will be using, especially with one day shoots etc. All we can do is ask for silent equipment, clothing, locations and props, but it's not our responsibility... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 First DIY'er out there to liquid cool a RED will get major brownie points! http://www.mecasax.ch/products/fanplate by Sonosax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 I work with a pair of Epics all the time, on semi warm but not usually hot sets. The lowest speed we can get away with for the fan when rolling is 45%, this after many tests. On these shoots there is generally no take 2 of anything, and the availability of the interview subject--ie their time--is always an issue. We found that in long runs--up to 30 min and beyond, the only way to keep the camera fan from detonating our takes was to run at 45%. With two cameras this is not great, but we feel we have no choice under the circs. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 Note that the Epic fan problem is exacerbated by 3D, which requires two camera bodies, and also productions that shoot with A&B cameras. When you have, say, 4 cameras on set, you now have four times the noise of a regular camera set up, and that's where things can go terribly wrong. My experience is the same as Phil's above: I try to negotiate at least 35% fan speed on normal takes, and logistically I try to get the camera as far away from the subject as possible. If we're in an interview situation and they want to bring the camera in closer, I'll tell them up front, "OK, but I'm not responsible if the camera gets noisy." It's funny: we're almost at the point the industry was in 1927 when they had to enclose the camera in a blimped booth to keep the noise away from the actors and microphones during dialogue scenes... only in this case, we can't blimp the camera without also keeping it cool and ventilated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason A Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 All great points, and yes as Michiel says usually only possible on feature shoots. One thing I would add is that, as I'm sure many of you have experienced, not all epic fans are made the same and you can definitely find ones that sound worse than others even in the same build series. I've had the rare luxury of catching this at the rental house during a test and they switched for a better sounding model. Still the lesser of two evils though. These cameras are a pain in the ass but there are ways to deal with them. 1. Get to the rental house with your team during camera testing. 2. Learn how the fan system works (user menu can decide fan speed for idle and recording). 3. Negotiate with the 1st AC and let himher know that because the fan settings can lead to ADR they have to be your responsibility as Production Sound Mixer and have a dedicated member of your sound team learn the menu so you can quickly and efficiently liase with 1st AC on the set and manipulate the fan speeds according to conditions. 4. If the 1st AC is worried about running the camera on its lowest fan setting (25%),do a test and put a timer on how long it will run (with the air con in the camera test room turned off) before the camera overheats and the fan speed increases to 100%. Have him check the footage so he KNOWS by doing that the recording cannot be 'damaged'. Do the same timing with the camera fan speed on 35% so if your Director wants to run for long takes you have 2 options- the best for sound on normal length takes,and a compromise for long or multiple takes that gives the 1st AC confidence that the camera won't over heat. Set the camera's idle fan speed to 25% whenever you first go onto a new set to give you a window of opportunity to listen for any other noise issues in the background while the cameras set up.As soon as you have identified the other issues,turn the idle fan speed of the camera back up to the highest idle speed the camera dept will allow- Remember the higher the idle speed,the cooler the camera runs between takes,the longer it will run for during a take with fan speed on minimum (25%) before the camera heats up to the level which engages the higher speed. I have done 2 movies with Ridley Scott on Red Epics,and Ridley likes to run long takes and sometimes uses multiple takes without cutting if he feels it helps the actors.A few times we have had the loud fan speed engage and I agree with Jeff,that when that happens it provokes a natural cut in proceedings in much the same way a 'run out' would on 35mm,and my perception when it happened was this is how it was treated by director and actors. .I would prefer the risk of that happening every so often than having a fan speed varying throughout a take creating differences in background during the editing process within a quiet interior scene.Having a constantly varying fan speed is also,obviously,much harder to gate in post as the frequency is varying. What did we do when the noisy fan cut in with Ridley? Well,it happened while running the cameras on a warm interior on 25% recording speed and doing multiple takes within one clip.The cameras overheated at about 7 or 8 minutes.All we did was reset the recording fan speed to 35 % to deal with the enviroment and the requirements of that particular scene. What fan speed do we usually 'idle' the camera at? I would personally favour 100% to try and keep the camera as cool as possible as already mentioned but they are so damn noisy (like a hairdryer) the compromise that seemed to work with camera operators was 75%. I feel the fan speed on the Red's is very much the Production Sound Mixers responsibility (this is the reality unfortunately) and we must make that clear to the camera dept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted April 9, 2013 Report Share Posted April 9, 2013 Here's the new fan kit - not one, but THREE fans now, though according to Jarrad Land "much quieter" - user replaceable. Will render many third party accessories unusable. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?97862-NAB13-DSMC-FAN-2-0-Upgrade-Kit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rb1138 Posted April 9, 2013 Report Share Posted April 9, 2013 Here's the new fan kit - not one, but THREE fans now, though according to Jarrad Land "much quieter" - user replaceable. Will render many third party accessories unusable. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?97862-NAB13-DSMC-FAN-2-0-Upgrade-Kit Think this could be combined with the fan/attachment from Sonosax? And create a decent-sounding camera for once. I want to get a RED someday. I like the images, and it's affordable. But since I have a sound background and can hear everything wrong with it now, I can't logically think of getting one unless I can figure out how to shut the damn thing up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted April 9, 2013 Report Share Posted April 9, 2013 I don't see the point of running two top fans inline. Unless they were very precisely speed matched, it'd probably cause more problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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