Sound Art Film Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 Hi all, I got a shoot with a Canon C300 coming up and had a question about the TC output of the camera. Looking in the manual, it states: "The user bit of the time code signal is output while the camcorder is recording in CAMERA mode or during playback of a clip in MEDIA mode." [79] The camera will be set to generate Free Run time code, not Rec Run, so in theory, the TC output should be outputting a constant feed of time code. However, given the above statement, I wonder if along with User Bits, time code is also not outputted unless the camera is recording? I ask because I am planning on setting up a TC Buddy TX from camera, to a TC Buddy Master in my bag to 788. TC Buddy Master set to External RF Continuous. I am thinking that if no TC is outputted to TX and then suddenly it is, but at the camera's TC Free Run rate (which may be different than the RX tc value), this could throw a curve ball at the TC Buddy Master? I would assume the TC RX should be able to adapt to variations in TC since it is in RF mode, but you never know. And, just to say it now, I am going TC from camera to recorder because I already have a hop (SRB) on camera and the TC TX is much smaller than the master (or lockit) and this way, I should always be aligned with TC from C300 on my 788. Experiences, thoughts, conjectures? THANKS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 " I wonder if... " workflow test... " conjectures? " the answer is in there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Woodcock Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 Free run on the c300 constantly outputs time code <br /><br />Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2<br /><br /> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sound Art Film Posted April 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 Thanks Chris! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Woodcock Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 Putting the tx on the camera is easier but I ended up putting two master boxes on the c300 hundreds on a feature I mixed last year. I wanted my nomad to be master no the camera<br /><br /> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cujo Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 We are using 2 C300's (along with 6 other cameras of various type) right now. I have found the C300 T/C to be --AT BEST-- dodgy. You will be well served to make the C300 eat whatever TC you are feeding from a properly attached box...The other way round is a recipe for heartache. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sound Art Film Posted April 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 Thanks for the information Cujo and Chris! I understand feeding the camera TC is the standard way of doing things since our recorders/boxes have very stable TC. However, I was under the impression that if you use camera as master, paired with a wireless TC/TX and a TC/RX to recorder, the accuracy of the master time code wouldn't matter because it would be reflected in the incoming RX/ slave unit? At least in Free run mode where the TC value is always progressing. Cujo, what were the TC issues you were having with the C300? Was it drift or something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 Thanks for the information Cujo and Chris! I understand feeding the camera TC is the standard way of doing things since our recorders/boxes have very stable TC. However, I was under the impression that if you use camera as master, paired with a wireless TC/TX and a TC/RX to recorder, the accuracy of the master time code wouldn't matter because it would be reflected in the incoming RX/ slave unit? At least in Free run mode where the TC value is always progressing. Cujo, what were the TC issues you were having with the C300? Was it drift or something else? Sending the audio recorder TC from the camera, esp a camera with a lo-fi clock like C300, will not guarantee sync between audio files and picture. This is because the two machines are on different clocks, ie their internal clocks, which will not be in sync regardless of what the TC is doing. For real sync you need accurate (and matched) clocks on both devices, hence the time-honored attachment of a Lockit jammed to audio TC to the camera, for genlock and TC. Without the Lockit, with a C300, I've found you will be close, most of the time, but not in dead sync. And then there are the occasional camera TC hiccups....again, why we attach TC boxes to cameras. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 If you are married to TCB system, they are making a new little receiver box to mount on cameras. IIRC they initially designed the system from a REC RUN viewpoint, but are making new hardware based on user feedback. I wouldn't trust the C300 as a master clock, which is basically what you are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sound Art Film Posted April 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 Thanks for the help Philip and Johnpaul. I totally understand where you guys are coming from. The client hasn't asked for TC, just a hop for useable audio, along with a back up in my bag. I was hoping to find a convent way to also give them the TC option to easily locate my back up audio. In previous shoots, they don't care to slate and just speed along(episodic/fiction work). Given the adamant advice above that makes complete sense, I think it wiser to forgo the headaches of faulty TC and allow them to plural eyes audio if need be. Thanks once again for all your useful insight and information! Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 If your recorder audio is really just a backup to the "hopped" sound recorded by the camera then "close" sync w/o Lockits is prob fine--figuring that they'd only go to your recorder audio if there was a problem with the hop for one shot etc.. In this situation--a repair job to the cam audio, I think really good notes about what audio for which scene is in what audio file is better for post than TC, really. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio911 Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 I've had problems with the C300 being the master before, or just jamming the camera without using a continuous TC feed.. I always send TC to that camera now. I'm using a TC Buddy system and just picked up a BETSO SBOX-1 for the 2nd camera. I'm waiting for the TC Buddy mini RX units to roll out. They can't come soon enough!!! Steve Wytas www.audio911.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armin Siegwarth Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 I am curious what kind of problems you had when c300 and timecodebuddy tx are sending tc to your recorder... recrun or freerun? is it drift on long takes? inconsistent or wrong start tc? right now I use it as recrun autorecord my 664 (one cam documentary) and am fiddeling with timecode hold off. 0,5sec which is the default 664 value is too short. i tried 1,5sec which lead me to 2 - 4 wrong timecode files a day (several seconds off) - not heard from post yet but in the soundreport the other values seem reasonable my next try tomorrow is 2sec timecode hold off and 2sec preroll. not sure if that will make it better or where the problems came from. btw: test recordings this time showed a 2 frame tc late on 664 and Iphone. next firmware on timecodebuddy in july should have timecode offset. Last year I did the same with c300 recrun, timecodebuddy and 788 and had no complaints from post after I adjusted timecode hold off. No long takes though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio911 Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 The C300 will lose timecode on battery swaps, or shutting down the camera. I've been sticking Betso SBOX-1 units on the C300's jammed from the 664 as time of day. No problems. The TC Buddy Master Unit is "too big" for that small camera!!! Steve Wytas www.audio911.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 I hate the C300 and the (4K) C500. They're just too damned small, unless the operator is smart enough to get a full cage and rails for it to allow mounting video assist gear, transmitters, receivers, lockit boxes, batteries, and so on on top of it. But that makes the whole package almost twice as big. There is a point where these tiny cameras are too small to be practical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio911 Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 The sound department has more cases than the camera department now!!! SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 I hate the C300 and the (4K) C500. They're just too damned small, unless the operator is smart enough to get a full cage and rails for it to allow mounting video assist gear, transmitters, receivers, lockit boxes, batteries, and so on on top of it. But that makes the whole package almost twice as big. And almost exactly the amount of, say, an Alexa that comes almost fully armed. I agree totally with you. Did a gig with a c300 the other day. I had my lockit box, but unfortunately, the cable I had was soldered the wrong way so I couldn't get the signal out from the lockit into the camera. The other way around worked well. So that's what we did. Just using the ordinary checking sync by counting, it seemed as though it synced up just fine, and held sync okay. We jammed pretty often though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Lewis Posted May 29, 2013 Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 Recorder is Master, C300 Is slave. I use TC buddy as well. Camera is master only if RECORD RUN. The most accurate clock should be the master IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted May 29, 2013 Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 The sound department has more cases than the camera department now!!! Doh! I just did a shoot on Saturday where I think the sound department (me) rivaled camera for equipment, because it was a playback situation for a music video downtown. Only they had about five people as assistants, and I had just me! Oh, my achin' back... The whole Canon philosophy with the C300/C500 is peculiar to me. Just the size and shape of the cameras seems very cheap and chintzy, not conducive to good operating. I have no problem with the Sony F5 or F55, provided the crew gets a proper cage and rails for the system, which they generally need for the myriad of viewfinders and batteries they need to attach to the system. Give me 4" of open area, and I have enough space for a timecode box and a wireless hop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindrop Posted May 29, 2013 Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 Doh! I just did a shoot on Saturday where I think the sound department (me) rivaled camera for equipment, because it was a playback situation for a music video downtown. Only they had about five people as assistants, and I had just me! Oh, my achin' back... The whole Canon philosophy with the C300/C500 is peculiar to me. Just the size and shape of the cameras seems very cheap and chintzy, not conducive to good operating. I have no problem with the Sony F5 or F55, provided the crew gets a proper cage and rails for the system, which they generally need for the myriad of viewfinders and batteries they need to attach to the system. Give me 4" of open area, and I have enough space for a timecode box and a wireless hop. Yes no room anywhere on the bloody C300/500 I've had to velcro to the top of the flip out screen, to fulfill the demand of not getting in the way, and then put up with the smugness of camera people and producers who think they're being so clever with the quality/cost equation! gripe, moan, grumble ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTA Posted May 29, 2013 Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 If I can convince post to just get scratch, then I'm a happy camera just slapping an ERX on there. And for that matter, any camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cujo Posted May 29, 2013 Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 Recently finished a feature that had 2 of the C300's among the six other cameras in the package. Timecode reliability is nil unless you have a sync box mounted full time feeding the camera. As mentioned above, battery swaps and what seems like just about any other function except pushing 'record' will cause jam to fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonMoore Posted May 29, 2013 Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 If I can convince post to just get scratch, then I'm a happy camera just slapping an ERX on there. And for that matter, any camera. I agree. That ERX is the way to go. Split the output to XLR/BNC and you're set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solid Goldberger Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 I know I'm a little late to the party, but why do I keep reading that people are trying to set their Recorders up for Rec-Run to match when the cameras roll? I've NEVER been asked to do this in 10 years of doing Production Sound full-time, and I see few advantages and many more disadvantages versus standard free-run TC. E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTA Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 I know I'm a little late to the party, but why do I keep reading that people are trying to set their Recorders up for Rec-Run to match when the cameras roll? I've NEVER been asked to do this in 10 years of doing Production Sound full-time, and I see few advantages and many more disadvantages versus standard free-run TC. E. For whatever reason, I have had people in post tell me it is easier for them to ingest a lot of footage this way. Not that I agree this is the way to go... but I do what I'm told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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