NeverClip... in simple pictures

[Constantin]

Not at all null. The "patent pending" period holds a competitive advantage. It can be a really big advantage should a competitor wish to try to circumvent the patent.

Whereas, once a patent is issued the patent information is available to anyone, not so during the "patent pending" period. During that time other manufacturers are on notice about patent protection but they don't yet know the specifics of the patent. That information is not universally available until the patent is issued, thus giving the manufacturer with the "patent pending" a market advantage during this period.

But isn't the point of the patent that you're being protected? If the point is secrecy then why apply for a patent at all?

[Mark Orusa]

If Zaxcom has applied for a patent then there must be something at least somewhat unique that would separate it from other manufacturers' designs. We may never know...

 

Mark O.

[Victor Rubilar]

I think the competitors ( Sound Devices) will have to work extremely hard, , I dont see any competitor capable of doing anything similar within several years, and never clip is  on the market NOW.

  As I said, there is basicaly nothing new in the process,  anyone can make the same whith a bunch of equipment and manual work.

Lets say: 

 

1 millenia hv-3R with HROE option (extra mirror outpts at  lower level )

2 RME ADI 8qsm (they include safety limiters for overvoltage that work just over the cliping level)

1 computer whith 2 RME Hdsp aes or HDSP madi  and Nuendo

 

-  then record high and low paths

- raise the gain of the low path track 

- replace manualy the cliped sections in the high track path with the corresponding raised low path section

- mute the raised low path track

 

AND YOU HAVE NEVERCLIP (pull down the master fader in order to monitor without distortion)

 

you can conserve the new REAL 32 bit float track (no real benefit, maybe post procesing, but nothin audible)

or you can pull down the fader of the track and export it as 24 bit

 

AND YOU HAVE NEVER CLIP WITH ISO ATENUATION.

 

this is a common process in live recording, but generaly they just crosfade and compress the paths, but in clasical recordind you can take advantage of the high dinamic range of the source and make the exact merge of the waveforms as never clip does.

 

All this is just asumptions, i dont know the oficial never clip. If it is like this, then the advancement is just to put a known process in only one automatic machine.

I think zaxcom will not have problems with the patent. they didnt invented the transmiter nor the recorder, but they succesfully patented the transmiter with recorder.

does exist a patent for a pencil with flash light ? 

Well, never clip in a portable recorder is a marvelous thing for production mixers. IT WORKS, AND IS AVAILABLE NOW, go for it

 

Pd: even if that seems like advertizing, i dont work for zaxcom, nor even have a zaxcom product. neither Mr Glen is my father XD

[Angelo Waldron]

So....what do you need 137dB of dynamic range for?

[studiomprd]

" just made conclusions from the info other users posted in this forum and what Mr. Glen Sanders said in his video of Never Clip. "

as John has said,  until a patent (and protection) is actually granted,  all we can do is speculate and draw conclusions...

[Victor Rubilar]

So....what do you need 137dB of dynamic range for?

in order to "never clip" I supose (leaving 20 db extra headroom)

or for clasical music recording (without leaving the extra headroom) where you dont want to compress the dinamic range in post.

[Angelo Waldron]

Never seen anybody record classical music with Zaxcom.

[studiomprd]

" for clasical music recording "

this is not a "classical music recording" forum...

 

" you dont want to compress the dinamic range "

OK, but what is the materials' dynamic range, even in classical music..??

keep in mind the noise floor of the space one records in is typically higher than the noise floor of the equipment doing the capturing and recording, even in concert situations, and especially in production sound situations...

[Victor Rubilar]

Never seen anybody record classical music with Zaxcom.

but lots with Sound Devices. That can change.

 

 

" you dont want to compress the dinamic range "

OK, but what is the materials' dynamic range, even in classical music..??

keep in mind the noise floor of the space one records in is typically higher than the noise floor of the equipment doing the capturing and recording, even in concert situations, and especially in production sound situations...

I imagine a string cuartet or maybe a chelo solo full of pianissimos and some fortissimos, recorded in a quiet studio, with some very close microphones to record even the finger pulsing of the strings. and now because of never clip you can raise the volume of your reproduction system  at the maximum and having about 5 db less hiss noise due to the transparent recorder.The ambient noise at least for me is more tolerable than the hiss electronic noise.

 

As I stated before in my first post, the principal use of never clip is what his name say, Never Clip. In production sound you normaly set the varaible gain so the average audio level is about -20 dbFS, and then there is an unespected plosive laugh and you may clip the recording. Now with never clip the plosive laugh can reach +20 dbFS and you will not clip,  

[studiomprd]

" In production sound you normaly set the varaible gain so the average audio level is about -20 dbFS, "

maybe you do, but not me!

-20 dBFS is the lineup tone, and with the assistance of good peak showing metering, and protected by a good limiter, I typically try to run my average audio higher than -20.

[Victor Rubilar]

" In production sound you normaly set the varaible gain so the average audio level is about -20 dbFS, "

maybe you do, but not me!

-20 dBFS is the lineup tone, and with the assistance of good peak showing metering, and protected by a good limiter, I typically try to run my average audio higher than -20.

 I inform you now MR Senator that with never clip, its look ahead limiter, and your lightning speed twisting knob  hands  you can  finaly achieve your dream of recording at 0 db FS.

 

I dont intend to say anybody were to set his gain pot. that is anyone own desicion. But to make a real desicion people must be informed of how his equipment work, for them to know for real what are they doing. For example  Never clip will not do anything if they dont feed the system ( this is after the included preamp of the recorder) with voltages higher than 0 dbFS, the noise will not be reduced. That is why I made this explanation. Never clip does what it says. It let you to disable the limiter for gain setings that otherwise  will need it. If you dont want to work that way, is your choice. there is people that will use the option.

  You can carry a good mic with the gain full down into a battle documentary and you will be able of recording the bomb that will kill you without any distortion and the lower noise level of all time. , and be awarded for the best post mortem sound achievement.

[atheisticmystic]

You can carry a good mic with the gain full down into a battle documentary and you will be able of recording the bomb that will kill you without any distortion and the lower noise level of all time. , and be awarded for the best post mortem sound achievement.

This is probably the best, ESL retort of all time !

Senator, you have to at least give Victor props for that...lol.

carry on gents.

best

[studiomprd]

" give Victor props for that "

 

   

[VM]

I dont see any competitor capable of doing anything similar within several years,

You have good reasons to love the Nomad because it is a good recorder but...it seems to me that you are going to fast :

Digital mics can already do the dynamic job..

For instance Neuman's digital microphones get 2 converters. One for low noises and another one for tiny sounds : you do not need to do any gain or level.

Anyway, a part of our job is to work with the dynamics... Natural dynamic is too huge for our ears while seeing a movie or listening music.

[Wandering Ear]

Never seen anybody record classical music with Zaxcom.

I have.

http://wanderingear.net

[podgorny]

in order to "never clip" I supose (leaving 20 db extra headroom)

or for clasical music recording (without leaving the extra headroom) where you dont want to compress the dinamic range in post.

 

 

I wish to experience this classical music performance with 137dB of dynamic range.

[John Blankenship]

But isn't the point of the patent that you're being protected? If the point is secrecy then why apply for a patent at all?

 

The competitive advantage of the "patent pending" period is that your competition knows that some element, or elements, of your design are protected but they don't know exactly what or how.  Once a patent is issued, a competitor can get a copy of the patent and knows just what is, and isn't, protected.  If the competition wants to copy a product, but not infringe on the patent, it's much easier for them to find a way around it if they know exactly what the patent covers.  

 

So, the "patent pending" period is kind of a "honeymoon" for the patent holder, if you will.

[Marc Wielage]

I wish to experience this classical music performance with 137dB of dynamic range.

 

That would be the threshold of pain...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_of_pain

[podgorny]

Yes, assuming the lower limit was 0dB-SPL. Of course, there is sound below 0dB-SPL.

So if I ever am asked to record fireworks at Orfield Labs, I'll be sure to use NeverKlip.

[Constantin]

Yes, assuming the lower limit was 0dB-SPL. Of course, there is sound below 0dB-SPL.

So if I ever am asked to record fireworks at Orfield Labs, I'll be sure to use NeverKlip.

I doubt the Nomad will be able to record any sound below 0dB. I would assume it only start at maybe 10-20dBspl? I don't know, though. That means the max would be at 147dBspl. But that's only the converter. What's the max for the preamp?

[grafpez]

For those who are interested,

I've posted some real life Neverclip examples on my new website,

[link has been updated!]

http://avsupport.com.au/maxx-difference-maxx-advantage/

(alternative path: in the AllEars section of the main site)

with a direct comparison, pictures and real examples to listen to.

This might help you or your clients to understand and appreciate the fantastic advantage that Neverclip has.

happy neverclipping ;-))

[Tom Duffy]

For those who are interested,

I've posted some real life Neverclip examples on my new website,

http://avsupport.com.au/?p=856

 

I was hoping to see the raw Maxx files, but all these clips seem to have been exported from "Avid Media Composer 7.0" according to the BEXT chunk.  Has anybody got info on how the headroom metadata is encoded into the file?

 

Tom.

[glenn]

I want to thank you Peter for putting this together. I think you put together a very fair and honest demonstration of how NeverClip  will make a difference every day not just during high SPL situations.

 

Glenn

[macrecorder]

It may illustrate the principle of neverclip very well, but it is hardly valid as a test to compare a machine like a Nomad with a prosumer device like the Zoom. A fair comparison would compare recordings from the same machine, or of two with similar tech specs. You would expect the noise floor on the Zoom to be worse, and comparing compressors on two such different machines is bound to deliver very different results. So it is unclear what contribution these differences make to the final result.

[glenn]

It would be very nice if someone would run an independent test of MAXX against any professional recorder. We can not do it but I am sure there is some one or a group of sound mixers who would take the challenge. Maybe Peter might be able to do it.

 

Glenn