SQN 4S IVe meters and various.

[Benjamin Gandy]

I currently have a 302. It serves its function well, but I'm starting to think that an extra input might come in useful, and I'd really like some direct outs from my mixer to provide ISOs and a mix to my recorder. The reason I'm drawn to a second hand 4S is that I want the channels and directs but haven't the money for a 442 or a 5S or similar.

 

I'd always disregarded SQNs because other than the 5S they don't have all direct outs, but I came across an SQN on eBay just and noticed something printed on the baseplate:

 

CH1 Post Fader Unbal. Out

CH2 Post Fader Unbal. Out

CH3 Post Fader Unbal. Out

CH4 Post Fader Unbal. Out

 

Now this was the 4S IVe. I did some scouring and I found that only the IVe is the only 4S that has all four direct outs, great, but the IVes have BBC peak meters.

 

I understand the scale of BBC peak meters, but does anyone know what the clipping point of these mixers are? According to SQN, the line up tone should be set to -12dB from the clipping point. I'm assuming that the tone is defaulted to output at .775V RMS? I know that 4 on the scale is 0dBu, and it goes up to 7, with each step 4dB, so that means the clipping point is just above 12dB (which would make sense for the -12dB calibration). This may sound like I've answered my own question, but on a standard VU meter the clipping point is well off the scale, so I just wanted some clarification so I know what I'm getting into.

 

Secondly, I know the 5S has this set with its direct out grounding, but is there any way of taking the channels pre fader? I don't particularly need pre fades, I just wondered if there was some fixed gain pre fade that the direct outs could be taken from. I mean if the inputs are set to line there must be some point on the faders which corresponds to 0dBu?

 

Thirdly, how do these compare performance wise with an SD? I have a 302 and there's nothing I use on the 302 that I couldn't do with an IVe, so I'm more concerned preamp wise. I get that some may say they're not as good as SD pres, but just how not as good? What about the limiters, how do they compare with SD's?

 

I'm sure there must be some of you that have used/still use these and are familiar with them. My plan is to get one for a nice price, see if I like it and then out my 302 if I'm satisfied. Any ideas on whether £800ish would be an appropriate price for a good working used one?

 

Cheers

 

- Gandy.

[Soundwil]

Hi Gandy

Although I don't use an SQN now I can say the following:

The mic pre amps are excellent - I don't know who might say they are inferior to the SD442 pres because it is very subjective. Some people do they they are better sounding than the SD's found in the 442.

The limiters are also top notch.

The only reason SD 442 took such a market share of the portable location mixer market here in the UK was because of the direct outs, flexible and numerous outputs, weight and menu flexibility IMHO.

£800 seems to be about ball park for what you may be looking at.

Check this link (below) to see some options that might tickle your fancy! The Cooper also looks good which is another top notch mixer. You'll also find a few 442s in that price range.

http://www.bblist.co.uk/search.php?category=Audio+Location+Mixers

Cheers,

Wil

[rofin]

Hi Gandy, have a look at these links, they should help.

 

http://www.sqn.co.uk/old/e4s/4Sebook.html

 

http://www.sqn.co.uk/old/e4s/4Sespec.html

 

The IVe was available with a range of peak meters and also vu.

The output clipping point is approx. +22dBu

I think that the post fades were calibrated such that an input level achieving 0dBu balanced out with the fader at 12 o'clock gave -10dBu unbalanced out at the post fades.

 

Rob

[Benjamin Gandy]

Hi Gandy, have a look at these links, they should help.

 

http://www.sqn.co.uk/old/e4s/4Sebook.html

 

http://www.sqn.co.uk/old/e4s/4Sespec.html

 

The IVe was available with a range of peak meters and also vu.

The output clipping point is approx. +22dBu

I think that the post fades were calibrated such that an input level achieving 0dBu balanced out with the fader at 12 o'clock gave -10dBu unbalanced out at the post fades.

 

Rob

 

See I thought the clipping point would be higher than ~12dB, but if that's the case, why would 0dB only be at -12dB full scale?

 

I read the -10dB part, I suppose it's logical that the faders'd be at 12 o'clock for that. 

[dolo72]

I have always set ppm 4 (.775v @ 600 ohms) for -18 or more usually nowadays at -20 of full scale on the recorder/camera. I have never heard a lack of headroom and digital clipping using the sqn although you can hear the limiter if you hit it too hard. This is the standard calibration for line up tone which is set at PPM 4 (.775v @ 600 ohms )on an Sqn I think the mic amps in the SQN are excellent and I much prefer them to the sound devices I have used (442 744t 788t). I also prefer the old filmtech, cooper and audio developments mic amps to the sound devices although my favourite are the Sonosax which is what I use.

[James Arnold]

SQN preamps are superb. SQN llimiters are (in my opinion) by far and away the most solid and transparent of any of the limiters on any portable recorder or mixer. They aren't configurable, but it doesn't matter when they work so well in their fixed setting.

[dudsound]

Thirdly, how do these compare performance wise with an SD? I have a 302 and there's nothing I use on the 302 that I couldn't do with an IVe, so I'm more concerned preamp wise. I get that some may say they're not as good as SD pres, but just how not as good? What about the limiters, how do they compare with SD's?

 

Whilst the opinions of those who are in the SD corner compared to those in the SQN corner can cause discussion the like of only the Marmite argument can compare with, rest assured you will have no problems sonically by choosing an SQN.The limiters are legendary and have been for many years before SD arrived on the scene, but also your fears of distortion do not warrant worry assuming you operate within reasonable limits.

 

After over thirty years of using SQNs, I have just put aside my SQN 5 series 2, (I haven't sold it, yet), and replaced that with an SD 664. The decision to do this was based purely on the facilities the 664 could provide in a lighter package compared to my SQN5/SD788t setup. But for all the fantastic electricerry the 664 can provide, I still think the SQN5 sounds better and for me that means it has a warmer more rounded sound. Analogue in a honed perfected form.

 

At the end of the day it will not matter which of the top mixer manufacturers you choose and all have different merits, because your sound will have gone down a long road before it finally oozes out of your television, and at that point no-one can tell who made the mixer knobs, I am merely advising you with some years experience that an SQN is still sonically a good purchase.

 

(Also, I suspect rofin, Rob, maybe on the inside of SQN)

 

Good luck

 

Dudley

[rofin]

(Also, I suspect rofin, Rob, maybe on the inside of SQN)

 

I was for 30 years, but moved on last Christmas.

Rob Finch

[studiomprd]

" the line up tone should be set to -12dB "

" why would 0dB only be at -12dB full scale? "

tone is waaaaaay different from peaks

analog meter full scale (FS) is waaaaaay different from 0cBFS (digital meter)

[JWL]

I have a 552. But have owned a 302 and a sqn 4s II. The sqn pre amps are fantastic along with the limiters. Better than the SD slightly. Unfortunately the sqns just dont have the handy features thst the SD mixers have, which is a shame because they ate beautiful reliable machines.

[Simon Hayes]

Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels was recorded on an SQN Mixer.There was zero ADR in that movie.

Every interior scene was captured on an CMC5/Cut1/MK41 Schoeps combo and every exterior scene was captured on a Sennheiser 816.There were no radio mics used.

The SQN sound quality is world class and the limiters pretty unbreakable (although they engage a little early for my tastes now).

PPM Meters are the standard meters in the UK and PPM4 (0dbu) is lined up to -20db or -18db on digital recorders.

[Benjamin Gandy]

PPM Meters are the standard meters in the UK and PPM4 (0dbu) is lined up to -20db or -18db on digital recorders.

 

" the line up tone should be set to -12dB "

" why would 0dB only be at -12dB full scale? "

tone is waaaaaay different from peaks

analog meter full scale (FS) is waaaaaay different from 0cBFS (digital meter)

 

See I don't see why SQN recommend the line up tone to be at -12 digital (and thus why the limiters are set at +12dBu) if the mixer clips at +~20dBu.

 

According to SQN:

 

     "Typically, the Line-Up tone should be placed 12dB below the allowed peak level"

 

     "Coming into operation just below peak level"

 

     "with the nominal Line Level (0dBu) represented by 4, the nominal Peak Output Level of the mixer (+8dBu) occurs at 6 on the scale."

 

So I assume that the only reason for the 8dB headroom above the limiters is in case any peaks get through the limiters. But I've had my 302 limiters set to +18 with my tone at -20 digital and I've never had any problem with that, and the SD's limiters have twice the attack time.

 

My nominal peaks with the SD would be between +0 and +12ish; if they hit +16 I'd bring them down a tad so they don't ride the limiters. So I'd run the SQN exactly the same except -8dB; my peaks would be between 4 and 6, with occasional 7 but I'd still record with 8dB headroom above the maximum output of the mixer just in case? Because editors love to have a go at me for recording too quietly "which makes more noise when I bring them up in Final Cut", and then complain when "the loud bit is very distorted".

 

Are there any benefits to going with a 5S [/ -II) rather than a 4S-IVe if I could get one for a good price, other than age? Is the 5S the same size, or an inch or so wider? 

 

 

I have a 552. But have owned a 302 and a sqn 4s II. The sqn pre amps are fantastic along with the limiters. Better than the SD slightly. Unfortunately the sqns just dont have the handy features thst the SD mixers have, which is a shame because they ate beautiful reliable machines.

 

What were the sort of features that drew you from SQN to SD?

[VASI]

I hope if that help you.

 

[Benjamin Gandy]

I hope if that help you.

 

Meter_scales_from_HR.jpg

Seeing the meters together here reminds me of something else.

 

I've always preferred the VU meters on my SD for whatever reason, and VU 4-IVes are impossible to find. Would this be a

decent reason to go for a 5S over a 4, or would PPM meters be a better choice over VUs, going by other peoples' experiences? I would prefer Nordic PPMs because they meter higher than standard VUs and lower than BBC PPMs.

[studiomprd]

" a better choice "

what is better depends...

and of course is subjective.

 

" because they meter higher than "

besides the numerals, there is the ballistics of the meters...

[VASI]

Seeing the meters together here reminds me of something else.

 

I've always preferred the VU meters on my SD for whatever reason, and VU 4-IVes are impossible to find. Would this be a

decent reason to go for a 5S over a 4, or would PPM meters be a better choice over VUs, going by other peoples' experiences? I would prefer Nordic PPMs because they meter higher than standard VUs and lower than BBC PPMs.

 

Personally I much prefer the "EBU Digital" meters.

[studiomprd]

I find that among other things my preference varies based on what the sound is and what the use is;  and I really like Dorrough metering

[mikewest]

A robust and wonderful mixer

 

It has a stereo mike input socket (5 pin) for my Sanken CSS-5

 

Limiters are good for dialogue but not for gunshots

 

mike

[engaudio]

Don't forget that SQN will mod most mixers to have prefader outputs as well as raise the limiter to whatever level you desire.

Just "hat" and they'll let you know what can be done to your particular model.

 

Grant.

(happy owner of both a 4S mini and 4Sseries4 modded by the factory)

[James Arnold]

This is true. Great guys at SQN. I'm glad Simon mentioned the early engagement of the limiters - its puzzled me for years that on average levels you will end up 'tickling' the limiters. It sounded so good I never minded, but...