Crosstalk between actors

[Tim M]

Say on a closeup, do any of you mixers who do mostly features and shorts do you alert the director when crossing lines is a problem...especially if scripty doesn't concern themselves with it. I have recently decided to let this all go since nobody seemed to care ever besides me...and since it some times requires the actors to deliver their lines "unnaturally". I know in post though that cross talking can create precarious positions for dialogue editors. Your thoughts? Thx.

[studiomprd]

" do you alert the director when crossing lines is a problem... "

crossing the line is general a scripty thing,  but if you mean overlap of dialog,  well, that used to be an issue, but these days...

it depends...

<insert comment about style over substance here>

[Earmuffs]

Say on a closeup, do any of you mixers who do mostly features and shorts do you alert the director when crossing lines is a problem...especially if scripty doesn't concern themselves with it. I have recently decided to let this all go since nobody seemed to care ever besides me...and since it some times requires the actors to deliver their lines "unnaturally". I know in post though that cross talking can create precarious positions for dialogue editors. Your thoughts? Thx.

If its the same thing as what i refer to as talent "stepping on each others lines", yes I make sure the director is aware that this is going on and encourage him/her to correct the talent on their delivery. If they fail to make it happen and I feel its crucial to the scene Ill attempt to get the line isolated by request or wild, if possible.

[Whit Norris]

Tim,

 

I generally will ask for it clean. If not make sure both or all actors are miced and tracked and hopefully the dialogue editors will be able to make it work. It is generally called "overlap".

 

Cheers,

 

Whit

[stevegrider]

I'd its not written that way in the script, and wasn't done that way in rehearsal, I will ask the director if they are ok with it. If they say yes, i have done my due diligence.

[RPSharman]

True close ups seem pretty rare these days. It's always preferable to not overlap on singles, technically, but if everyone is covered (two booms or lavs) and dialog is consistent, then it can be sorted out quite easily in post.

There's a BIG thread about it here somewhere. An excellent read.

I only ask for clean takes if feel editorial will have a tough time cutting around it, or if the overlap happens too soon, not allowing an important line to happen. But for that, I usually involved script super.

[Tim M]

Interesting, this is a fairly difficult thing to figure out on the spot if "overlap" will be a problem in post. I would figure that any blame in post should fall on the script supervisor since she has cans etcs too. But what do I know.

[studiomprd]

" fairly difficult thing to figure out on the spot if "overlap" will be a problem in post. "

old thinking would consider any off camera, not mic'ed  overlapped line to be a problem, and, even today, it certainly will be...

in the old days, when we typically did not mic the off-camera talent, overlaps were called, and the exchange redone (often without cutting,--a pickup-- as it was clear that the pieces would be edited... but it has been a developing practice since the 90's to mic all off camera dialog, and allow overlaps, (that is the "it depends") which I personally feel are usually triumphs of style over substance.  When I watch and listen to real people in conversations... people may try to interrupt, but really don't typically overlap much in real life

 

so what to do on set..?  be proactive and wire everyone (sigh)... that seems to be what is going on;  if there is someone not mic'ed overlapping, I usually feel I'm in a position to call out

"overlap"...as I always did "way back when" -- when it was appreciated--.

and from there,  well...

it depends.

Edited May 15, 2013 by studiomprd

[Constantin]

Interesting, this is a fairly difficult thing to figure out on the spot if "overlap" will be a problem in post.

Well, if there isn't always a mic on everyone involved in the overlap, then it's likely to be a problem. That's actually very easy to figure out. Beyond that it gets trickier.

With regards to respobsibilities: I always feel at least partially responsible for everything that is audible, so overlaps, too. I never falk to the scripty, though. Talking to the director and asking for wild-lines is my way, too. And making a note in the report, if both requests get denied

[Constantin]

When I watch and listen to real people in conversations... people may try to interrupt, but really don't typically overlap much in real life

Obviously you haven't met my wife

[RPSharman]

Interesting, this is a fairly difficult thing to figure out on the spot if "overlap" will be a problem in post. I would figure that any blame in post should fall on the script supervisor since she has cans etcs too. But what do I know.

If you're familiar with the editing and post sound process, most of the time it's not difficult to figure out at all.

It might be worth telling an inexperienced director the overlap locks them into the timing and performance, but an experienced director knows this. Or should.

[Tim M]

Hmm thanks everybody, I ask because we just did a closer louder scene in a kitchen and I decided not to mic them. Even during closeups there was overlapping constantly since they were laughing etc, hope they'll be able to cut it. I want to say more stuff but everyone is relatively inexperienced and Ive said so much already...might be sick of listening to me.

[Philip Perkins]

I usually find it's down to directorial style.  If the director likes the overlaps then that's what we'll do, even if the offscreen actor is standing next to a noisy camera or light or etc.   Some directors are edit-control freaks and will prevent overlaps if they can.  In multicam there is often no "off-camera" anyhow.

 

philp

[Marc Wielage]

I always try to get alt takes without the dialogue overlaps whenever possible, but I'm sometimes stymied by inexperienced directors who don't understand the concept. It's particularly frustrating when they say, "but I want the dialogue to overlap in the final film!" I try to explain that the levels are going to be all over the place and it'll be impossible to separate them or change the timing, but it's sometimes a losing battle.

 

It does help when you can get scripty on your side and have them point out the need to get separate lines for editing purposes. Only once or twice have I lost the battle in not convincing the director just to do a couple more takes "clean" for dialogue. 

[MatthewFreedAudio]

For a director to have a "directing style" they need to actually have enough experience on set. Otherwise they're just making it up as they go.

Production Sound Mixing for Television, Film, and Commercials.

www.matthewfreed.com

[Constantin]

Sometimes in such cases and if the actor is really off-cam, I put an open lav on them. It's quick and easy to do and sounds good, at least usually better than a hidden lav. Ocasionally, a mic on a stand will help, too, especially on low-budget projects where there is no second boom

[Peter Mega]

Even on reality shows when all the contestants are talking over one another, I make it known to the producer/s that it becomes a cacophony of sound which cannot be understood. No point in shooting for hours on end if its unusable right?

Also for a 2 head sit down interview, the overlap can be an issue, again I make it known to the producers.

 

The 2 hosts on a show I've been doing for the past 4 series have become well trained to not overlap their lines. If they do so accidently, they pick themselves up without being asked, its great!!

[Benjamin Gandy]

Quite a lot. I'll usually ask the director if they can not step on each others' lines unless it's necessary, like someone interrupting someone else. If both mouths can be seen I'll usually try to swing between the actors, but not drift too far in case they do step on each others' lines. If it's tight enough I'll usually just stay between them if the cast are relatively static.

 

I've not yet heard overlapping lines after the edit, so I assume I'm doing it correctly. If radios are on it's a different story, although I always pretend the radios aren't being used and try to get the boom spot on. I find the problem is worse with hypercardioids than shotguns or cardioids, because the shotgun picks up little enough of the other actor to not matter, and the cardioid picks up enough of the other actor to often be acceptable, but the hypercardioid picks up enough to hear but nothing worth hearing.

[atheisticmystic]

In the shallow end of show business, overlap can become catastrophic, as you add "improvsation" to the inexperienced "then how does Judd Apatow do it?" directors.

The only saving grace is that no dialogue editor will be subjected to the above, because they usually dont even know that something exists after picture lock.

Still, I always have the conversation before the shoot begins.

best

[S Harber]

If a director has ever spent much time editing they should know that they are tying their hands if they allow major overlaps which cannot be easily undone. I let them know that they are painting themselves into a corner and will have issues shortening the scene or changing the pacing of it in post. 

On masters I generally let it play out but when we push in I am much more apt to call out overlaps. I boom off camera lines as well so as to allow them to function as wild lines as well, this in addition to wiring most of the time to protect future impulsive tendencies of many actors and directors, but that's just how I play it.

I find my role is more to let them know my opinion of what is cutable or problematic and what is not. They can then make an informed decision and do with it what they will.

 

Scott Harber

[Jesse Flaitz]

I'm very much hoping that there will be a special features segment on Silver Linings Playbook about the one scene where everyone is shouting at each other around the dining room table.  The way it was shot and edited is a fantastic example of overlapping dialogue.

 

I recorded interviews with some of the cast and Robert De Niro said it was by far the most challenging scene for him in the movie.

[RPSharman]

I find my role is more to let them know my opinion of what is cutable or problematic and what is not. They can then make an informed decision and do with it what they will.

Scott Harber

That's the way to do it.

[studiomprd]

" "but I want the dialogue to overlap in the final film!" "

post can create overlaps,  but they cannot take them apart.
 

 

all too often

" they're just making it up as they go. "

and doing so badly!

[old school]

I always try to do it right but at the end of the day it is the directors film. Give the people what they want.

CrewC

[Joshua Anderson]

I think the thread that Robert is referring to has a post by RVD about his experience with overlaps on "Moonlighting." Once the director decides to allow the overlaps, RVD's approach of matching the mics is the best way to go. If you can find that thread, I think his description is pretty detailed but basically comes down to knowing which mic you will need for the off camera person once you turn around and making sure that's the one you use when they are off camera in the first direction. Ideally that's two boom mics. 

 

I've certainly tried to enlist the script supervisor by saying "I can make it sound good by micing both the on camera and off camera, but it doesn't solve the editing issue if the overlaps are not consistent." 

 

But I've had directors point out that you'll only use one shot at a time and in a sense they are right. As long as you can bridge that cut (chop of the first characters line earlier in the edit, before the on set overlap), then you can get away with it. But if the scene is just actors speaking over each other without listening to the other actors, it can get too messy to be useable.