Time Code Buddy sync for budget-challenged concert show

[Philip Perkins]

Young Will and I did another of our budget-challenged music recording + video jobs last evening, and we tried out something new in response to a change in the camera dept.s gear.  In the past we'd done many shoots like this where there was a mongrel assortment of prosumer and pro video cameras working, and all of them could A: roll for a long period of time (like a whole music set) and B: could have their internal TC generators set to a specific time and then started manually.  This is what we refer to as "3-2-1-GO sync".  It's not frame accurate for sure, prob a few seconds off, but it gives the editor a pretty close idea of where in the concert they are, and then the camera's onboard audio would serve as a syncing guide.   But now--enter the DSLR.  This is now the camera that most  (young) shooters have, everyone loves the look, the size, the price.  I love them a bit less for this kind of gig, I guess, since they don't do either A or B mentioned above.   This show had at least 5 of them that I actually saw (maybe more--who knows?), in addition to 4 EX1 type cameras (whose TC gens can and were started together, can shoot a whole set from a slate at the top etc).   The stage was very crowded,  the operators, and especially their assistants, were pretty inexperienced (but game) and there was no budget for multiple TC slates, or really a way to deploy them easily during the set for these cameras (roving all over).  After considering a few options (including my favorite--Do Nothing--they chose these stupid cameras after all), our Hail Mary was to try a TimeCode Buddy fed TC from my TC generator (which was feeding TC to my multitrack) and have all the DSLR hordes download the TC Buddy iPhone app.  We hooked up the TCB and raised it up in the air (in the pic Young Will is spotlighting the TCB transmitter with his flashlight).   The DSLR-drivers shot the TCB app TC off their phones each time their cameras auto-cut during the sets.

 

The results with this setup I would have to honestly call "mixed".  The TC I was seeing on the phones was sometimes dead on, but there were also many times were a group of phones would not be showing exactly the same TC (usually the seconds were correct).  Since the show was in a place with a couple of strong local wifi networks, the phones would tend to want to jump off the TCB network and on to the building network.   The signal from the TX seemed a little weak to cover the whole auditorium--some shooters told me their phones sometimes would not find the TCB wifi, or not at first until they went into settings and got it back, then opened the app.  By this time the shooter would be very impatient to get back to shooting, as you might expect, and since I was set up back stage I'm not totally sure what our "compliance" level really was (yet).    

 

In thinking about this TCB attempt I decided that it was still a good thing even if the TC was not perfect all the time, since the TC was always close, ie as good as a manually started internal generator in my experience, and so will provide the "where are we in the show" guide if not a perfect sync line-up to audio.  But…if there was more money up I think I'd opt for something a little less scary and less subject to "outside forces", even if it was phones being a display for the TC coming from a jammed SB3 etc or, God forbid, the time-honored TC slate.  But, as the producer of this show said, the (rented) TCB setup met our "price objective".    

 

Below is also a shot of our "poor-man's 32 track recorder".

 

philp

[Sound Grab]

Thanks for your review on the TC Buddy. I'm certainly on board to make the purchase of the system when the mini trx start shipping next month. So I certainly like to hear about people's usage.

 

• Considering some iOS devices weren't all lined up in frames, did anyone try setting an offset to all the iOS devices in the TCB app to compensate?

 

• Also, if the iOS devices were trying to jump off the network, does that mean they had "Ask to Join Network" setting turned on on their iPhones? Did they "Forget This Network?" for each known wi-fi network they've logged on to in the venue? Perhaps that could have prevented the attempts to hop off the TCB network.

 

• I'm also thinking if someone brought a wireless router and setup the TCB into 'infrastructure' mode the range issues could have been solved.

[Boomboom]

Also, if the iOS devices were trying to jump off the network, does that mean they had "Ask to Join Network" setting turned on on their iPhones? Did they "Forget This Network?" for each known wi-fi network they've logged on to in the venue? Perhaps that could have prevented the attempts to hop off the TCB network.

+1

I don't own a TCBuddy (yet, at least) but these are winning, valid points for a good connection between my iPad mini and CL-WiFi . That, plus shutting down all my other applications running into the background ("double press button and deselecting these apps at bottom of screen").

In a word, "dedicating" your app as much as you can on the iDevice.

[Philip Perkins]

+1

I don't own a TCBuddy (yet, at least) but these are winning, valid points for a good connection between my iPad mini and CL-WiFi . That, plus shutting down all my other applications running into the background ("double press button and deselecting these apps at bottom of screen").

In a word, "dedicating" your app as much as you can on the iDevice.

The main Wifi net of the location page on my phone didn't seem to have a "forget" box like the others.  I had "Ask" on on my phone, but it never asked about jumping off the TCBudnet--perhaps I'm doing something else wrong.  The younger ops were much hipper about their phones than I am and they still had trouble keeping a connection.  Most CLwifi users aren't trying to use it across as much distance (and obstacles) as we were either.  I don't see how you'd set an offset accurately with running code--as I mentioned, the seconds were usually lined up but the frames would seem off in varying amounts very frequently.  There is something else going on.  I've heard that the TCB works very well when using its own wireless link, and I figure the Buddy folks have done what they can to work with existing wifi technology, but our collective opinion was that in this case we were asking too much of it, with the issues having to do with the phones and wifi.  Maybe a router etc would have helped, I'd like to hear if anyone has tried this, but we were trying to get a 32-track recording with 9+ cameras of a continually changing musical ensemble of nearly 100 players up in just a couple of hours, so the time and resources avail to TC swork were limited.  I could have easily jammed X number of TC slates in the time we had, though, and they would have been accurate all the time for the whole show on one jam.....

 

philp

[Jack Norflus]

Philip

Have you given any thought about using Zaxcom ERXTCD. Each unit has it own TC reader / generator so once it is locked there is no fear about the ERX losing code. While you can't output the code to an iphone currently - you can output the LTC to an audio channel in the camera as well as feeding the camera a channel of scratch audio.

[Boomboom]

Don't get me wrong Philip: since I don't own any TCBuddy unit I was just pointing something I experienced with the only wifi thing I use in my kit and can relate to.

For the offset and other details, I couldn't say.

And yes, you had quite a gig there with all these folks to feed !

Jack: yes it can be done, using proper output setting I don't remember on the ERX and a cable using schematics provided by Denecke, along with their ToolBox app. (Leave the condenser in the schematics; of no use).

[Sound Grab]

Why would you hijack the thread and start talking about Zaxcom......

[Jeff Wexler]

Why would you hijack the thread and start talking about Zaxcom......

 

I will answer that (as I'm sure Jack would answer as well) that it was not a hijack at all --- Philip was faced with a very challenging situation for which the use of a Zaxcom product could have been very helpful. The Zaxcom ERXTCD is an amazing device that for the next time Philip might look into, that's all.

[Boomboom]

!

[Alan H. Chang]

Maybe a router etc would have helped, I'd like to hear if anyone has tried this, but we were trying to get a 32-track recording with 9+ cameras of a continually changing musical ensemble of nearly 100 players up in just a couple of hours, so the time and resources avail to TC swork were limited.  I could have easily jammed X number of TC slates in the time we had, though, and they would have been accurate all the time for the whole show on one jam.....

 

philp

 

One time we needed to use a router that had both 2.4G and 5.8G for a musical that needed remote capabilities for the A/V department.  The 2.4G was specifically used to trigger our sound laptops and other access points throughout the venue for cues and live feedback interaction with the cast and audience.  Basically, there were motion sensors at every 3-feet interval for cast cues, and another motion sensor system dedicated to the audience and patrons.  The 5.8G WLAN was used for the intelligent lighting system for pinpoint follow spots of on/off-stage actor cues as well as house spots for certain parts of the venue.

 

The thought of recording 32 w/ 9+ cams covering 100+ players, Wow!  Now, I do see a bit of black chairs in the bg of the first picture, but wasn't exactly sure if they needed to be wired or wireless.  Impressive thinking with the TCB (don't own them, yet) and cam/phone system.

[Boomboom]

Back to Jack: I check my "iNotes" but couldn't find the settings.

But I remember it was easily dialed-in using the scope in the Toolbox app.

The Clockit TC app by Ambient can also be used and it's also got a scope so you'll sure figure that out in a snap.

If memory's good, it was .125V but I could be wrong.

And yes it's a nice device, but I'm still looking for the finished version; the one with no protruding switch and pot, an easily readeable display in most mid-light situations for scripties (à la QRX) and locking 1/8" output connector. THEN, that'll be an "amazing" (it's still $600) unit.

Hint: could even have a VERY large display so we skip the iPhone (noted?).

Features is no excuse for poor design in our work.

Sorry in advance, but it's just my "non-zaza-zombie" opinion...

[Jack Norflus]

Why would you hijack the thread and start talking about Zaxcom......

 

 

I will answer that (as I'm sure Jack would answer as well) that it was not a hijack at all --- Philip was faced with a very challenging situation for which the use of a Zaxcom product could have been very helpful. The Zaxcom ERXTCD is an amazing device that for the next time Philip might look into, that's all.

I feel the TC Buddy is a great system and does some pretty cool things. 

But because Philip, in his OP, said that he got mixed results with the TC Buddy in this particular setup. So I am just mentioning a different system that he may not be aware of, so next time Philip is in a similar situation the Zaxcom system may yield different results.

[Mark Orusa]

I would second the ERX2TCD, but with 9 cameras you're looking at $600 x 9 = $5400, or $4500 if you get the bulk discount.

 

If the only issue was Wifi range, you'd have to setup a system with multiple wifi units. As I don't see an ethernet port on the Wifi master, I don't know how you'd effectively extend the range.

 

Off topic, if you didn't already have the JoeCo Blackbox setup, I'd suggest getting a Behringer X32 and recording straight into your favorite DAW. One console plus a computer.

 

Mark O.

[fieldmixer]

And yes it's a nice device, but I'm still looking for the finished version; the one with no protruding switch and pot, an easily readeable display in most mid-light situations for scripties (à la QRX) and locking 1/8" output connector. THEN, that'll be an "amazing" (it's still $600) unit.

Hint: could even have a VERY large display so we skip the iPhone (noted?).

Features is no excuse for poor design in our work.

That's a fair statement. The ERX could indeed have an external overhaul and be the dream timecode box. Here's to V3.0! Solid case, recessed switch and pot, larger and better screen. Consult lectro for build advice.

[Mark Orusa]

That's a fair statement. The ERX could indeed have an external overhaul and be the dream timecode box. Here's to V3.0! Solid case, recessed switch and pot, larger and better screen. Consult lectro for build advice.

Let Zaxcom know your thoughts. They are known to effect user requests.

Zaxcom Tel: 973.835.5000

General contact page: http://www.zaxcom.com/contact

Submit a technical question: http://www.zaxcom.co...hnical-question

 

Mark O.

[Sound Grab]

I rest my case.

[ccsnd]

well you rest as a moron.  Do you have any other suggestions for a device that would have helped in this situation?  If you do than you should tell people.

 

If not you should stop being a baby.

[ccsnd]

Also, due to the nature of how wifi works, it will never be a good source of wireless TC transmission.

[Chris Woodcock]

Sadly the WiFi on the TCB is its weakness especially as it has to be linked to the iPhone which has caused nothing but problems with WiFi

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[Mark Orusa]

Also, due to the nature of how wifi works, it will never be a good source of wireless TC transmission.

There are many issues to be considered with wifi. The ZaxNet system is not technically wifi, but it operates in the 2.4GHz range. It is known to interfere with and destroy wifi transmissions.

 

As long as the ERX units can catch a glimpse of the 2.4GHz ZaxNet signal they will re-jam - I believe just 1-2 seconds is all they need. Otherwise they will run from their internal generators and remain effectively in sync until the next re-jam.

 

As the TCB is truly wifi there are communication protocols to deal with. For example, a receiving device like iPhone, iPad, etc has to first find the wifi, then connect, and then sync. If the TCB system would allow extension of it's network it would be more useful. I can easily extend wifi through my house with Apple Airport Express and other Apple wifi-creating devices simply by having each one create the same wifi network. Without a network port on the TCB, you'd have to connect to its wifi signal with another wifi product, then output that network signal via ethernet to wifi transmitters. That's not a reliable method of distribution.

 

Mark O.

[ccsnd]

WIFI is a protocol that uses the 2.4 ghz range.  

 

Devices that use that just use wireless range are not wifi and have nothing to do with wifi unless they are using the wifi protocols.

 

Wifi is not and never will be capable of doing anything frame accurate.

 

Zaxnet is not only "not technically wifi" - but it has absolutely nothing to do with wifi other than it uses similar frequency ranges.

[Mark Orusa]

If ZaxNet uses IEEE 802.11 standards, then it is wifi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi-Fi

 

Mark O.

[Boomboom]

Having used a TCBuddy unit with every iPhone on set would have make it work too as TCBuddy units also use their wireless capability to jam TC; like the ERX, once it's jammed, the internal generator takes care of TC.

Cost wise, what TCBuddy got now would have been more expensive; the Master unit is $1100, so $500 more than the ERX. But it also generates genlock, well... useless for DSLRs... (Let's stay in the discussion)

With their soon-to-be released Rx unit, there may be another solution.

In OP's case, it seems that the main variant (and fairly calculated risk, it seems) was having everybody take proper "care" of their iPhone settings for the job to be done using a solution that was way much cheaper than having to buy several units of whatever brand it might be to feed TC to the iPhones idependantly. And I think this was part of the original goal.

People have used and still use G2s, Comteks and maybe other devices to feed audio TC to cameras.

With proper cables (resistors,etc), you could use an iPhone and the appropriate app to display TC from lots of models of TC boxes.

I'm sure to OP did know about that.

[Chris Woodcock]

If ZaxNet uses IEEE 802.11 standards, then it is wifi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi-Fi

Mark O.

It does not use any standard it just broadcasts on 2.4ghz

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[Philip Perkins]

Again--I think the TC bud is a very cool system, but in my bonehead non-techo way I agree w/ Mr Calandro--the prob here is wifi, not TC Bud.  We were asking too much of the system.  The Zax ERX thing is a great solution too, but as a rental would not have met our "price objective".  To get ballpark TC to phones I had thought of getting the producer to pay for a download of the JumpStartLTC app to a bunch of phones ($20 each)--that app grabs TOD @ frame rate off the cel network clock.  But in testing I found that two phones with the same app and OS would not have TC that agreed perfectly, so it would have been nothing more than a ballpark TC ref (but with less hassle for sure).  We actually saved a few $ by renting the TCB from the estimable Louis Block and getting the app free, and from what I saw the phone TC was very close to my audio TC at least some of the time, which the JumpStart TOD never was.  Oh well, live and learn.  In later thinking I realize that one of my misgivings about this TCB+cam op phones thing is that the main display units for the TC are out of my hands.  IE I can make sure that a slate is jammed and has good batteries, ditto for SBTs and ERXs etc, but the phones on this job were the personal phones of the operators--I had no idea if they had enough battery charge for the whole show, and the sync required a series of actions with the phones on their part instead of just aiming the camera at a slate or etc.  Anyhow, waiting for hate mail from the editor now....

 

Also:  TCBuddy needs to make an Android version of its app......

 

philp