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Briefcase Mixers - Cooper vs Neve


Michael Gassert

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Sup Y'all -

 

I've been keeping my eyes pealed for the best breifcase sized mixer to fit my needs.   As a production sound mixer/recording engineer/musician I'm always trying to get the most out of my gear.  I'm looking to find the ideal mixer to fit the following needs.

 

1) on stage:  in on eof my bands, we use alot analog samplers and prefer to have some mix control on stage.   2 track mix goes to on stage amps, direct outs to FOH, pre/DI quality a must

 

2) film production sound (front end to my Nomad)

 

3) additional A+ quality pres to add to my mobile music interface (ULN-8, 2882 + DSP, RME FF800, Macbook)

 

4) summing mixer:  summing stems from my DAW for final mixes

 

key components are pre quality, direct outs, size and cost.   I've never used any cooper boards - curious how the pre's compare to neves/API's etc.   I've seen some pretty cool looking old 8 channel Neve briefcase mixers modded to have direct outs but they seem difficult to find.   curious what recommendations people might have.    Any opinions on the Neve 5060?

 

cheers!

 

MikeSound

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In my opinion, you are kinda looking at two different things.

Generally speaking, production mixers are designed with clean headroom in mind. The Neve is going to be all about color and harmonic saturation. These are qualities that aren't exactly revered in location boards. The Cooper is transformer balanced, which means you'll inherently get a little harmonic coloration (read: distortion) out of it, but I wouldn't drive the circuit like I would a Neve. 

I don't know that there is one magic bullet here. Both great pieces of gear, but both engineered with vastly different uses in mind.

 

Further to the point: are you really going to take a portable Neve board (or even a Cooper, for that matter) to clubs just for sample sub-mixes!? Get a Mackie that A: Won't get stolen, and B: You won't cry if you spill a beer on.

 

My $.02

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" what about the little Neve's would be bad for music  "

I never said that...

the design, and the features are not tailored to then needs you seem to be describing.  The same for the Cooper's all Coopers.

Lots of other, more cost effective alternatives.

 

" The Neve is going to be all about color and harmonic saturation. "

The Neve's we are discussing, the suitcase mixers, were designed for OB work, as in broadcast radio remotes, small broadcast vehicles, etc, and were a bit different from the recording studio Neve mixers

 

I suspect Mike is a bit of an "audio snob" (gear-head?), overly focused on spec's that may not even be meaningful for his actual needs and uses...

differences that won't be very pertinent, let alone noticeable in use...

Edited by studiomprd
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lol - aren't we all "gear heads" to some degree? audio snob, well in some ways yes but certainly not for the sake of vanity.   i do a large variety of projects and require different gear depending on the job. i've defintly made some great recordings with very simple stuff. but there are times, (when recording live jazz) when the difference between using Mackie pre amps and APIs (or even the pre's on the ULN- 8)) is noticable and makes a difference.  when recording some verite interview on the street for a web ad, pre quality isn't as critical.   

 

i find it difficult to find small mixers, with good pre quality, and direct outs for film or music.   

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If you want the very best portable mixer available today, I think the choice is clear:

 

The Sonosax SX-ST is an outstanding 8-channel console with pre-amps of extraordinary quality and very versatile routing capabilities.

 

http://www.sonosax.ch/mixers/sxst/sxst_index.html

 

Glen Trew has a review of the Sonsosax here:

http://www.sonosax.ch/mixers/sxst/Sonosax%20SX-STarticle.pdf

 

and the Sonosax page linked also has a link to a review by Tim White.

 

Of course, the mixer is about $24,000. It's what I would buy if money were no object but still...

 

The PSC Solice offers very nearly comparable performance for under $10,000. That's still more than the mass produced boards, like the Yamaha, but much less than the Sonosax and even less than the Cooper boards were selling for when they were available new. One of the advantages of the Solice (and the Sonosax) over the Yamaha is it is designed for 12-volt operation and doesn't require inverters or massive batteries to operate. I tested the Solice for the 695 Quarterly and found its performance to be within a hairsbreadth of the Sonosax.

 

You may find the Solice review in the Summer 2009 edition available here:

 

http://695quarterly.com/previous-issues/

 

David

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The needs of each application are a bit different, production sound being the most different and unique than the other three.

You will have AC power available while on stage, in the studio, and at home. However, not always on location with a camera crew. So, you need to have a mixer capable of DC power for field use.

The mic pres in the Nomad are quite good and very well suited for field use. Is there something about those 6 mic pres you don't like?

For your other uses check out the Midas F series. Great mic pres, FireWire connectivity for your computer, plenty of routing capabilities, basic EQ, and can be used in the field if you need that many channels in front of your Nomad and you have AC power.

Production Sound Mixing for Television, Film, and Commercials.

www.matthewfreed.com

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How portable is portable to you?  The Neve suitcase mixers were designed for radio, a long time ago (ditto the Calrecs)--they have a nice wooly sound but are very long in the tooth now, more so if they were moved around a lot.  You would be paying a great deal for the name, and competing against buyers with very deep pockets.  These mixers are also a serious maintenance liability--they need service fairly often, and if they haven't been re-capped already they need that now.  They are also HEAVY.  As you prob know, film mixers are about clean/clear/high headroom and routing for direct outs and communications+ light and small--not about sends, matrices, returns, or busses so much. I would opt for more specialized tools for each aspect of your work.  If you want diff pres than the board has (esp for music) that's easily done with outboard gear.  

 

philp

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" aren't we all "gear heads" to some degree? audio snob, "

I didn't say, or even imply that is bad...

" i do a large variety of projects and require different gear depending on the job. "

exactly!

" i find it difficult to find small mixers, with good pre quality, and direct outs for film "

there are several, and they are fine (quality) for "music", but mixers designed for music are designed with different features !!

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" it's a world class front end mixers. Neve it's different story. "

Neve pre's are pretty fantastic, premium, popular, and very well respected...

it is pretty much the mixers age (condition) and overall design (for OB) that are the issues at play here.....

 

Yeap. I agree. But Neve "target market" it's not for production sound film.

In studio, OB etc it's fantastic (I'm start to think the cost and I lost my hair, hahaha).

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I tend to agree with many of the people in this thread. Neve boards are really more for studio work, you wouldnt bring that out into a club. Coopers are basically the opposite of Neves in that they are super clean and made for recording clean dialogue, again wouldnt bring it into a club. Mackies are ok mixers and pretty cheap, ideal for live sound situations, as that is their designated audience. Im personally not a fan of Mackies, unless you want that sweet sweet guitar center grade sound (sarcasm), but I dont think you can go wrong with a decent mid level British board like a SoundCraft or something of the like.

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I tend to agree with many of the people in this thread. Neve boards are really more for studio work, you wouldnt bring that out into a club. Coopers are basically the opposite of Neves in that they are super clean and made for recording clean dialogue, again wouldnt bring it into a club. Mackies are ok mixers and pretty cheap, ideal for live sound situations, as that is their designated audience. Im personally not a fan of Mackies, unless you want that sweet sweet guitar center grade sound (sarcasm), but I dont think you can go wrong with a decent mid level British board like a SoundCraft or something of the like.

 

yeah - it's been a great discussion.  I actually have been considering the Soundcraft FX16ii for my on stage applications and i'll likely stick with my Nomad pres (which I'm totally saitsfied with) for production sound.    If i end up doing more cart based production at some point and need more pre's, i'll consider my options. 

 

on the music side, however, i've also been considering finding a Eucon to work with my ULN-8.  I love the routing, pre's and DSP it provides but want to avoid the laptop on stage thing with this project - cuz at that point, might as well ditch the analog samplers and use ableton.   a well integrated Eucon or similer (with the ULN-8), i could allow me to reduce the computer bulk (rack mount a MAcMini + bluetooth keyboard/mouse, ipad as the screen rather than Macbook).  anyone use a ULN-8 with a controller?

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I use Uln8 with mc artist series. I'm curious how you use an ipad as a screen. Would you still have touch functionality?

Air Display - you can set is a second monitor.  

 

 

For on stage, look at the Allen & Heath line.  Full 100mm faders and British EQ. 

i dig Allen and Heath - used a GS3000 in the studio for many years.   i might be wrong but arent most of the direct outs on the smaller boards post fader only? 

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Air Display - you can set is a second monitor.  

 

 

i dig Allen and Heath - used a GS3000 in the studio for many years.   i might be wrong but arent most of the direct outs on the smaller boards post fader only? 

Not for a long time-like Mackie VLZ days.  Nowadays they are prefade, but they might be post EQ.

 

philp

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The Cooper is transformer balanced, which means you'll inherently get a little harmonic coloration (read: distortion) out of it, but I wouldn't drive the circuit like I would a Neve.

 

 

Wyatt,

I challenge you to back up this statement. Andy designed all of his desks around Dean Jensen's CAD mic transformers which are phase accurate to better than 65KHz. Inherent distortion? Before his mix desks, Andy was famous for building filters which had an excess of 200KHz band pass, in order to insure linearity throughout the 20/20K spectrum.

 

Jay

(OK, I'm biased. I own the first 106+1 Andy shipped, a 208Dv.2, and a custom modded 306.)

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