PTA Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 This is the first time I've been challenged on this, but I was told by the cam op today that my levels are too hot an that he wants the peaks at -20. I've never had my leeks this low before an I usually have my peaks anywhere from -10 to -5 dBFS. Is this extremely low? It seems like a lot of wasted room to have peaks at -20 dBFS. Am I wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 What camera? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCK Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 I just love it when the cam op/director/producer knows more about sound than the sound mixer does! You are not wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTA Posted May 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Sorry I forgot to mention gear. I'm using a Nomad sending via QRX to a Panasonic HDX900. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Peaks at max -10 is fine. To dont need it up to -5, ever. And I'd rather have it be at -20 than closer to 0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim M Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Well since you have a Nomad like me if you put a limiter on your outputs before it can peak the camera then you should be fine IMO. I try to get as close to 0 on the camera as I can as I know it can't go over. Especially since the self noise on some cameras are terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edward chick Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 For HDX 900 I always like to let peaks ride around -10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTA Posted May 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 I've never doubted myself on this as I've been doing this for years, but this is the first time I've been challenged on it. Just threw me for a loop and wanted to make sure I wasn't going crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Reineke Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 "I just love it when the cam op/director/producer knows more about sound than the sound mixer does!" - Same here! I worked with many 'audio challenged' cam ops, one of which arbitrarily turned down the level because it was "in the red" .. which on that particular camera started at -20dBFS.. it should be noted this particular cam op also removed the tape I had put on the cam's level adj. to prevent this. I have little tolerance for this and don't react very nicely.. That said, if the persons paying me asked that, I would attempt a brief explanation why it may not be such a good idea, since most cams one would encounter in that scenario are 16bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 I have had audio that barely registered as a waveform, and it sounded fine at the end of the day. Nearly everytime I get audio that is too hot, even if its not actually clipping, its hard to deal with in post, and it actually doesn't sound that great. An average of -20 -25 is great. And peaks really simply don't have to be as hot, wether its 16 bit or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 I've had this issue before with some, especially OMB's who not only shoot, but edit themselves in FCsP. If that is what makes them happy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTA Posted May 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 I have had audio that barely registered as a waveform, and it sounded fine at the end of the day. Nearly everytime I get audio that is too hot, even if its not actually clipping, its hard to deal with in post, and it actually doesn't sound that great. An average of -20 -25 is great. And peaks really simply don't have to be as hot, wether its 16 bit or not. Interesting. I've had editors tell me the exact opposite, with waveforms that barely register and it drives them crazy. They've told me they like it much hotter than nothing there. As long as it's not clipping and being compressed too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim M Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Interesting. I've had editors tell me the exact opposite, with waveforms that barely register and it drives them crazy. They've told me they like it much hotter than nothing there. As long as it's not clipping and being compressed too much. I've experienced the same, but again these are people who hate or don't know how to even adjust gain. I've never heard a complaint about it sounding too hot if there is proper tone limiter etc. Interesting... But again the average is around -15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 The editor complaint has to do with the hassles they face gaining up audio in their NLEs--they sometimes end up doubling or even quadrupling clips to get them loud enough for their cut. But that's just a picture editing issue Given the choice of getting clipped or under-recorded audio I would agree that underrecorded is better--in audio post we have good ways of making clips louder. OP's cam op is asking for a non standard level for video for sure, however, esp. if your tone is at -20, and if I did this the editors for my clients would probably complain about low levels. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTA Posted May 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 The editor complaint has to do with the hassles they face gaining up audio in their NLEs--they sometimes end up doubling or even quadrupling clips to get them loud enough for their cut. But that's just a picture editing issue Given the choice of getting clipped or under-recorded audio I would agree that underrecorded is better--in audio post we have good ways of making clips louder. OP's cam op is asking for a non standard level for video for sure, however, esp. if your tone is at -20, and if I did this the editors for my clients would probably complain about low levels. philp 100% agree with you Philip. My editor friends complain of having to quadruple clips in order to get proper levels and they hate it. Of course clipping is not good, but to have levels at a nice solid level so that nothing needs to be duplicated and it isn't being distorted seems proper to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 100% agree with you Philip. My editor friends complain of having to quadruple clips in order to get proper levels and they hate it. Of course clipping is not good, but to have levels at a nice solid level so that nothing needs to be duplicated and it isn't being distorted seems proper to me. And if the editiors learned denier tools, they would know they can gain a clip using the gain on an eq plugin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTA Posted May 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 And if the editiors learned denier tools, they would know they can gain a clip using the gain on an eq plugin. Which they also do but complain of the noise floor being raised noticbly high at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted May 25, 2013 Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 That has nothing to do with gaining up. Its because the signal to noise ratio was crap to begin with. If I had a dollar for everytime I heard the words "it didn't sound that bad before" on the dub stage.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Gandy Posted May 25, 2013 Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 I have my 302 limiters set at +18dBu and my +0 tone at -20 digital. I mean you'd have to hit a whole +58dBu within .5ms to get through the limiters before the machine clips at +20dBu, so I see no reason to set the limiters any lower. I've had countless editors tell me the dialogue is too quiet and then plenty that complain when the dialogue clips because they've kicked it up by 20dB. My nominal peaks (sort of quiet-ish talking) are between 0 and +10ish, and it's not uncommon for me to hit my limiters. I've had an editor come back to me and say "the dialogue is recorded too quiet, and this will introduce noise when boosting the levels." My response was "You try recording in a tiny café where you're not allowed to turn off three fridges, an AC and an ice cream machine." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTA Posted May 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 That has nothing to do with gaining up. Its because the signal to noise ratio was crap to begin with. If I had a dollar for everytime I heard the words "it didn't sound that bad before" on the dub stage.... I thinking we are saying the same thing here, but I could be wrong. If the levels are too low to begin with, if you bring up the gain you are bringing up both the noise floor and the signal, therefore the noise floor becomes more noticeable. This is the problem with recording at low levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted May 25, 2013 Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 I thinking we are saying the same thing here, but I could be wrong. If the levels are too low to begin with, if you bring up the gain you are bringing up both the noise floor and the signal, therefore the noise floor becomes more noticeable. This is the problem with recording at low levels. No. If it is that noisy, it was that noisy begin with. I've never had an issue gaining up low audio, to proper level, if it was properly recorded. With good frequency content. The biggest problem is audio,that isn't necessarily distorted, but where there is over saturation, due to too hot levels, and the limiter doing too much. Sounds horrible, and isn't usually noticed until it hits the dub stage. I rent finished a project that was horrible all the way through. Levels were fine. But it was nothing but midrange, with lots of nice noise. Absolutey pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted May 25, 2013 Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 I wish the noise of the pres was an issue--most of the time it is swamped by BG noise of the location. Again, staying out of the clips is better than adding a little broadband noise, if any. As for editors not knowing certain aspects of their tools, that's out of my hands and above my paygrade. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTA Posted May 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 No. If it is that noisy, it was that noisy begin with. I've never had an issue gaining up low audio, to proper level, if it was properly recorded. With good frequency content. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. My thought is that if it is recorded "too" low, then it isn't recorded properly because it is too noisy. That was the point of the post (I had hoped). I never said anything about riding limiters or compressors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edward chick Posted May 25, 2013 Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 On a certain home buyers reality show, post sent down word that they wanted ref tone on camera set to -12db. Too many different mixers were giving them too many options. I appreciated their attention to the detail. Unless your Cam Op is also doing the post, tell him you won't light / compose the shot if he stays the ***out of your department:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewFreedAudio Posted May 25, 2013 Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 Simply dictate to the camera op how he or she should be pulling focus or setting the color temp. Feel free to also critique them on their framing. Production Sound Mixing for Television, Film, and Commercials. www.matthewfreed.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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