seth Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 I'm trying to validate purchasing an Srb for hops. More so than not, lately I've been chasing camera ops around. Honestly I like the comraderie of working as a team, and being cabled together defiantly involves a bit more team work. but having to make sure they don't trip over the snake, or I get a tug from camera, takes away from booming. I'm almost positive I'm not going to ever get a separate rental from buying a stereo hops atTHESE jobs, so it would be for a more leisure work experience. Ive aksed my usual producers and cam ops and they do not expect hops or are going to pay for them. This doesn't mean I can't redirect new clients. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Visser Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 If they are not going to pay for them, don't buy them. If you have a regular client, maybe break them out once just so they can understand the freedom gained and the advantages, but why would you just donate them to production? Many times, the request for hops comes from camera dept. They are the ones that benefit most from the added freedom of mobility and being able to get shots that would be impossible tethered. If you are looking for help in getting production to spring for them, start with your cameraman. I've also been there... production doesn't want to pay, I'm pretty sure that they need them, argue my point, but production stays fast. Well low and behold I show up and the cameraman looks at my snake incredulously and says something to the effect "I haven't been wired up in like 10 years". I'm like "well your in for a treat" production didn't pay for hops." All eyes gaze at producer and it sinks in, yep, were on a low budget production. We all just try to politely ignore the fact that were slumming it or a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheisticmystic Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 Well low and behold I show up and the cameraman looks at my snake incredulously and says something to the effect "I haven't been wired up in like 10 years". I'm like "well your in for a treat" production didn't pay for hops." All eyes gaze at producer and it sinks in, yep, were on a low budget production. We all just try to politely ignore the fact that were slumming it or a few days. I love that moment when the camera dept. glare shifts from "what kind of sound guy are you that you don't have "x".." to "what kind of lo-ball gig are we shooting here?" Nothing creates camaraderie like sharing a common peril. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_bollard Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 To "persuade" them to pay for hops it's always good to raise OHS and insurance. Here lots of locations in public spaces prohibit the use of any cables - I would say that covers being wired to the camera Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael McQueen Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 I've also been there... production doesn't want to pay, I'm pretty sure that they need them, argue my point, but production stays fast. Well low and behold I show up and the cameraman looks at my snake incredulously and says something to the effect "I haven't been wired up in like 10 years". I'm like "well your in for a treat" production didn't pay for hops." All eyes gaze at producer and it sinks in, yep, were on a low budget production. We all just try to politely ignore the fact that were slumming it or a few days. I was right at that exact place a few weeks ago... production wanted a lot of wireless in their version of a "basic kit" for the price of my basic kit (2 wireless, mixer, boom), but they did cave in and pay for a 3rd wireless. as soon as we start prepping gear, DP points out how he prefers hop mounted to his camera. me, "hmm... well i hate to be the bearer of bad news but production didn't want to pay extra for hops so we're going hardwired". his reply, "mother fuckers..." but it wasn't too bad of a shoot. not a lot of aggressive booming and the most we usually had on camera were 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Kittappa Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 I have the Zaxcom stereo hop and on occasion I've had the same issue- in fact I started a thread about this very thing a year or two ago. The call went something like this- Production company: we have this shoot in a shopping mall. The camera operator has requested a wireless hop, we see from your web site you have one. Me: Yes I can add that to the rental Production Company: Oh I thought you'd just want to supply it as part of the original quote doesn't it make your job easier? Me: Yeah, but it's a $4500 piece of equipment. Production company: Well from our point of view it doesn't matter if you go hardwire or wireless as long as it sounds good. I then posted a similar question to yours to the JW group as I was thinking and feeling the same as you. See link here for the thread. As you can see from most of the discussion the consensus is that you shouldn't be giving away an expensive piece of gear for free as it will set the precedent. In the end I put the hop in my car and when I got to the shoot set up a hard wire breakaway on the camera. The camera op wasn't happy, but when I explained that production wouldn't pay for it he got on the phone to production and they agreed to pay a rental. (Tho I must add that haven't worked for that company since either, but I have got a ton of work that has come through recommendations from the camera guy so make of that what you will). The learn here was don't give give gear away and as long as you are professional and pleasant you can most likely get camera to fight in your corner with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan H. Chang Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 Seth, Just remind them that it's a cheaper insurance than being tripped. There are times when ops would need to run at a moment's notice and could possibly snag both your mixer's outputs and the camera's inputs, thus, making it very much unusable from that point on forward. In the past, I've had kids accidentally run into the cables and getting hurt, not a chance to avoid this kind of outcome. The producer automatically noticed the injury and was upset at herself for not budgeting accordingly for a hop as I have told them during pre-prod. Though, starting next week is going to be the first film gig of the year, the quote I gave included a hop for sanity sake. Safety's a priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 Martin, that's my approach too, Production will always listen to camera more than us, so get them on your side and you'll get the results you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewFreedAudio Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 Do not give it away for free. It's two, specialized pieces of equipment that must be invoiced accordingly. If you give it away you will be screwing over yourself and every other sound mixer out there. I've never understood the business model of "I'll buy a bunch of gear and then not charge clients for it." That's the best and fastest way to go out of business. Production Sound Mixing for Television, Film, and Commercials. www.matthewfreed.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 " DP points out how he prefers hop mounted to his camera. me, "hmm... well i hate to be the bearer of bad news but production didn't want to pay extra for hops so we're going hardwired". " I have no problem using the hops that the "DP" provides... " The camera operator has requested a wireless hop, " or the one the "camera operator" provides the hop system can be rented to the camera folks, and they can bill the client, or include it in their package! The most important reason to hop is typically safety Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 Always charge for extra gear IMO. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldmixer Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 Always charge for camera hop. if they want it included and don't want to pay, increase your day rate accordingly. The Mention about insurance liability, especially in a public place, is brilliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeheel Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Quote <<<< "I have no problem using the hops that the "DP" provides... or the one the "camera operator" provides">>>>> I have a lot of problem with that actually- especially when the DP comes from another city and has a terrible block for his nice gear, or an ancient set of Microns that he doesn't know how to gain structure properly ( and has one light on it that means god knows what) and we have to start shooting in 3 minutes. I'd much rather use a hardwire than some random piece of camera kit.... when my sound is depending on it... Cheers, Brent Calkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seth Posted June 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 I then posted a similar question to yours to the JW group as I was thinking and feeling the same as you. See link here for the thread. Ahh sorry didn't come up in a search! Good point to get DP involved, though most are older and haven't minded the cable. But the safety point is very real. Great info on negotiation. I was thinking of it more like of buying a harness or a higher qt mic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikefilosa Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 In these days / times a 4500 Camera hop system can often be a larger investment than the CAMERA it's hooked up to... I'm never afraid to let them know that fact. OF COURSE it needs to be paid for when used.... MF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 " I have a lot of problem with that actually " what ever floats your boat. If they won't pay me for it ... " as a ploy during negotiation it wouldn't be a bad idea to mention, "I'm fine using the camera operator's wireless system." " I have had the situation where the shooter, not wanting to be at the mercy of sound folks with "less capable" hops has had one (Lectro), and as it was included in the package: I had no issue with using it Few of these camera wanna-bees (and most Pro's, too) have their own hops, so if they want one and production won't rent mine from me, I have on several occasions rented mine to the shooter, who dealt with paying me for it. I don't use this as a negotiating ploy, but on the few instances when this has come up, it has worked out fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJBerto Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 I think referring to them as "hops" doesn't help our cause either... Call them what they are: "Two additional wireless." Example: "Can you also provide a hop to camera?" "My basic package includes two wireless, I can certainly arrange to bring two additional wireless and, as we talked about before, additional wireless are $75/ea..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Hirtenstein Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 if you don't charge for the hops then people will expect me not to either! that ain't gonna fly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Ryan has a great idea: they are two wireless in your kit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Jones Posted June 7, 2013 Report Share Posted June 7, 2013 Ryan has a great idea: they are two wireless in your kit... This is interesting, because I never realized that anyone would present it any other way in negotiations. Of course I'll charge for two wireless, because that's what they're asking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted June 7, 2013 Report Share Posted June 7, 2013 I always invoice them as two additional wireless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJBerto Posted June 7, 2013 Report Share Posted June 7, 2013 It's semantics, for sure. I just won't use the word "hops" during negotiations... Additional wireless, wireless link, wireless feed, yes. After negotiations, sure, it's a hop! And, of course, invoice for additional wireless... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seth Posted June 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2013 +1 on using "two Wireless" They never understand what hops are anyways. I should have corrected that. Another throw back to waiting tables in your ability to vocalise desire and up sell. Though I think you guys are busting my balls a little to much for "charge for everything" for corp shoots attitude. It's unrealistic that your always going to get what you want. You have to be flexible and not get taken advantage of at the same time. Which is something many people don't do well. At least all the people I hear bitching at the end of the day. If you post here that you always hold fast on your rate and charge for your lav bullet(everything) well..Semantics, the term wireless/radio usually involve mics and accessories. And Adam they aren't asking for hops the conversation was geared towards how to ask for them/up sell. At least that is what I realise it has become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Kittappa Posted June 7, 2013 Report Share Posted June 7, 2013 One thing about quotes is you are not going to list everything- lav bullets cables, connectors etc etc. Even if you go to a rental house more often than not the cables and accessories are just part of the package and not listed as itemized inventory. I think most of us would factor in the cost of all the accessories when figuring out the rental price for the large line items. And yes it's all in the negotiation. I liken quoting for a job more like dealing for a car where the price isn't fixed and hopefully you'll get to fair figure that both production and you are happy with, rather than going to the grocery store where you are just rung up at the register. The issue comes when you make a quote that you and the production agrees on a price for a package, and then afterwards you get a call asking for a wireless hop, or some other additional expensive piece of gear and they expect you to just throw it in for free. At that point you do have to draw a line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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