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If you were starting from scratch?


podgorny

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Greetings, JWSound forum. My name is Kyle Mann. I'm new here. New to the world of sound for picture in fact.

I'm a professional recording engineer/mixer. Recently moved from Nashville to Burbank, and hoping to learn about and get into this side of things. If you care to know where I'm coming from, feel free to check out the work on my site, www.kylemann.com.

 

So here's my question:

I'm new to field recording. Not new to audio, and no stranger to high quality equipment or high quality audio. I'd like to put together a basic field bag. A mixer, a recorder (preferably with timecode), a boom and a couple wireless lavaliers. Just to get started with some basic shoots.

 

If you were starting over, knowing what you know now (which I don't mind saying is much more than I know) and wanting to make intelligent purchases, where would you start?

 

The other side of this is, I'd love to shadow someone in town. But like I said, I'm new here. Don't know anyone. So if you're in LA and willing to talk with someone you don't know, I'd be happy to buy you lunch...

 

Anyway, nice to be here. I definitely appreciate the info and experience on this forum.

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Start with a mixer, a good shotgun mic (416 is a popular choice and you will probably die before it will) and pole, and the best 2 channels of wireless you can afford. Sennheiser G3 are great value for money, used Lectro appear all the time. I suggest that you rent a recorder when you need it to begin with.

I would have loved to start with the fantastic options we have to put in our bags today.

A 552 is a mixer that records, and you can pick them up used for great prices. It can't generate TC but will stamp wave files if you feed it TC.

Budget tight? Find a used 302 or 442 and grab a Tascam DR-40 (no timecode there though)

Zaxcom Maxx (does TC) looks enticing but doesn't exist in the wild yet, and will have bugs (in line with every new product release) when we do see it.

There's a ton of other options to explore but that's where I'd be looking if I was green again.

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Many books discussed in these previous discussions:
 
 
 
There's also some good references on FilmSound.org:
 
 
This website has many years of discussions -- some controversies, some facts, some opinions -- but most of it will be very useful at least in terms of coming up with a game plan. Knowing the theory behind the gear is very illuminating, especially when it forces you to think outside the box. 
 
I also came to location sound from post, and the differences and similarities are often challenging. I was just telling a musician/friend of mine yesterday, "half of what I do is not recording sound... it's solving problems! Then another 20% of it boils down to just personalities and getting along with people. Whatever percentage is left is the actual sound-recording part." 
 
I would avoid spending any money unless and until you've rented gear a few times and also have a good grasp on the existing job market and what kind of work you wind up doing. It takes a long, long time to break in and make the contacts that bring more work. 
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If you are in Burbank, you can pop into some great dealers and spend some time checking out the gear. 

 

If you want a recorder with timecode, *most* people in the US use a Zaxcom or Sound Devices mixer/recorder.

With Zaxcom, the Nomad is the very popular bag machine, though some people use the bigger Fusion in a bag. The Zaxcom Maxx is shipping soon, but I don't think stores have demo units yet.

With Sound Devices the 788T and 744T are common, but the newer 664 is making a big splash. You can read the specs, but the short explanation is that the 664 is an analog field mixer that has a multi-track recorder tapped off the signal path. The 700 series are more recorders, and have some features the 664 lacks. 

 

Zaxcom and Lectrosonics wireless are very standard. As for a shotgun, the Sennheiser 416 is the classic but there are a LOT of options. The 416 isn't the nicest sounding, but it's been the most popular boom choice for something like 30 years (right?), so it is a familiar sound to people for TV/film dialog. It is also very resistant to RF and humidity, so a lot of people carry one as their backup. They also retail for about $999, which is very reasonable for the quality of mic. I fully expect mine to last my career. 

 

I would suggest reading up on some specs, especially because they should mean more to you than average "just out of school" people looking at gear. Search this site (easier via google) and you can get a lot of real-world opinions on items that interest you. You will read a lot of user criticisms, so you may have somethings to look at when you have it in hand. Then go into the dealer with questions and to get a demo. Some dealers will let you rent gear and apply that rental fee towards a purchase if you buy. 

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If i was starting over i d probably do one nomad 10 with kortwich bag with hip belt (it s a mixer and a recorder in the same box. It has alot of feature and it is a machine that you can grow with), 3 x g3 kits with oscar sound tech tl-40 lavs, one or two erx ( with proper cabling to jam a camera ). One sanken cs3e, one mkh50 mic with the new rycote suspension. One shortish aluminium boompole. One rycote modular wind system for cs3e(size4). Senheiser hd-25 headphones. One camera snake. Np1 battery distribution system and 3 quality li-ion batteries and charges. Some powerex rechargeables AA and chargers. A dry slate or a used electronic slate

All of this brand new will set up back about 14 000$ us. If you can get 300$/day rental wich might be hard in your early career you will be able to have paid your kit in 46 days.

Upgrade to more quality wireless when u get more money/experience/contracts.

Good luck!

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Start with a mixer, a good shotgun mic (416 is a popular choice and you will probably die before it will) and pole, and the best 2 channels of wireless you can afford. Sennheiser G3 are great value for money, used Lectro appear all the time. I suggest that you rent a recorder when you need it to begin with.

I would have loved to start with the fantastic options we have to put in our bags today.

A 552 is a mixer that records, and you can pick them up used for great prices. It can't generate TC but will stamp wave files if you feed it TC.

Something that helped me when I first built my bag, was buying gear with the intent to grow. The 302 is a great mixer, but 3 inputs and no direct outputs won't cover every gig. That's why my first mixer was a 442. To me, it was worth the extra cost so I wouldn't have to rent a four channel later. Of course, knowing the kind of work you usually do is also a factor.

A few years later the 552 was released, and I upgraded. The 552 is a great machine, and will offer you flexibility a 302 and 442 can't, without spending the big money a 788t or a 664 would cost you.

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If your connections are leading you towards simple small budg shoots where the directive is to have the primary audio on the camera, then a 302, a boom setup and some wires is a great way to start--esp since you won't be getting asked to do very complex audio and won't be getting a lot of rental $.  If you are looking towards more reality type shows then you'll need a bigger rig, but that will involve some research and opinion-forming on your part (hopefully having benefitted from hands-on use) and a good deal more of an investment.   Only buy what makes sense for the work you are doing and getting paid for, and maybe one step beyond that.

 

philp

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+1 on what Marc said.

 

While it's quite enticing to dream of an ideal equipment package and to salivate over innovative new gear, I offer the following advice learned over years of acquiring many types of gear: 

 

"You're not ready to buy until you know what you need and you actually need it." 

 

Being successful in location sound isn't primarily about the gear -- it's about building relationships, getting repeat clients, problem solving (Marc put it well), and knowing the craft and having the skill set.

 

If location sound is what you really want to do, here's another axiom:  "Get your mind off the gear and put it on your career." 

 

Naturally (staying in the "if I buy the right gear I'll be a pro" mode), you're going to ask, "But if I get work, I need to have the gear to handle it."  That's true -- but notice what came first in that sentence -- getting the work came before the gear.  Here's one of the areas where developing a relationship with a professional dealer can be of great benefit.  Get to know them.  Talk to their rental department.  Find out what they offer in the way of a full sound package rental.  A good relationship with an established dealer can be one of your strongest allies starting out -- and beyond.

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Thanks everyone for their input. This has been helpful.

 

John, I appreciate your "it's the carpenter, not the tool" response, but I do see the value in gear - and from my perspective (which is a studio background), signal path becomes EVEN MORE important when you are trying to capture clean, unaltered signal.

 

I think your advice about building a relationship with a Dealer's rental dept. is solid, and is something I will do.

 

 

Considering the lavaliers, what mics are preferred? I see Dominique has recommended the TL-40. Have you found the higher-end sanken or countryman to be a valuable upgrade, or is the quality of the wireless system the weak link here?

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 A good relationship with an established dealer can be one of your strongest allies starting out -- and beyond.

 ...in ways that you won't be able to predict.

 

"My" usual suspect (LSC) still gives me the same 25% student discount they gave me as a student 4 years ago (their student discount is now 40%...madness). When I encountered my first producer asking for a 3-day week kit fee, my usual suspect gave me 25% off a 2-day week, saying, "that way you still get a chance to make a little money."

 

As a result of this relationship, I now have a practiced preference for wireless kits, shotgun, hypercardioid, and lavalier microphones, and STILL don't know what recorder I'm going to buy.

 

This industry really is all about the relationships, invest in that for your first kit.

 

best

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Thanks everyone for their input. This has been helpful.

 

John, I appreciate your "it's the carpenter, not the tool" response, but I do see the value in gear - and from my perspective (which is a studio background), signal path becomes EVEN MORE important when you are trying to capture clean, unaltered signal.

 

I think your advice about building a relationship with a Dealer's rental dept. is solid, and is something I will do.

 

 

Considering the lavaliers, what mics are preferred? I see Dominique has recommended the TL-40. Have you found the higher-end sanken or countryman to be a valuable upgrade, or is the quality of the wireless system the weak link here?

 

Regarding lavaliers, it seems the  Sanken COS-11Ds is the favorite most of the time. DPA and Countryman are also popular, and I suspect that after a while your kit will contain a few of each, in different colors and maybe different sensitivities. I believe the TL-40 was recommended as good sounding budget option, as were the Sennheiser G3 wireless. As you didn't specifically state a budget, I would skip the G3's and just go straight to Lectro 411 recievers with um400a or sm transmitters. If  budget is a concern, I would opt for the older 211/um200c combo before going with G3s. While I do think the G3s can be useful, and many hang on to them after they upgrade, you'll outgrow them as your primary wireless very quickly (and never use them with the supplied mic.)

 

...

 

"You're not ready to buy until you know what you need and you actually need it." 

 

(*SNIP)

While I do agree with this, I don't think any sound person can go wrong having a high quality field mixer (even a just a 302), two lectro wireless and a 416. Unless, of course, you only work on jobs that provide gear. I know a lot of reality guys that are good and work a lot and they don't own anything beyond headphones and a harness. As your career grows and you really start figuring out what kind of gear you need, a 302 makes a useful problem solver, you'll always want two extra channels of wireless in your kit and, depending on which boom mics you end up adding later, there is comfort knowing you have a 416 standing by.

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Hi, and welcome...

" where would you start? "

another variation on the same old question, frequently and recently discussed here..

take some time to do some reading here...

(for example, a thread "First Kit Purchase" is currently active!)

 

" no stranger to high quality equipment or high quality audio. "

but this is a different game, with different goals, different situations, different challenges, and different rules.

you do not even know what you don't know yet.

you might start with what type of work you are interested in...

you need some book learnin' : Jay Rose's books at www.dplay.com  

but we have said all this stuff many many times before, so do some more reading here, as well

 

" Don't know anyone. "

hang around at our "usual suspects" shops, and make friends...

including the rental department..

" signal path becomes EVEN MORE important when you are trying to capture clean, unaltered signal. "

typically, there are other factors that come into play before reaching the threshold of the equipments' spec's...

depending on what you are actually doing, mic placement, distracting noises on the set/location, and etc will be issues before the very subtle differences in mic's' or mixers' specs or signal paths becomes perceivable.

 

and what John and Marc said...

Edited by studiomprd
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...

John, I appreciate your "it's the carpenter, not the tool" response, but I do see the value in gear - and from my perspective (which is a studio background), signal path becomes EVEN MORE important when you are trying to capture clean, unaltered signal.

...

 

We all understand the "value in gear" but that doesn't change a thing I said. 

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If I were starting from scratch in LA and had your background, I'd boom everything I could get myself on, Student films from USC, UCLA, AFI, Brooks, Chapman, etc.... Low budget films, commercials, you name it. Recording is easy, learning the set and working w others is the education. Problem solving, thinking on your feet, by the time you get enough knowledge to move up to mixing you will know what works and what doesn't as well as what to buy. Good luck.

CrewC

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We all understand the "value in gear" but that doesn't change a thing I said. 

 

 

John, I was responding to a generally pat answer to an honest question. I trust that if you had visited my site or looked me up on AllMusic, you might not assume that I think "If I buy the right gear, I'll be a pro", or that I don't realize "almost everything in location sound isn't primarily about the gear -- it's about building relationships, getting repeat clients."

 

I know you don't know me, and I'm not trolling here. I have seen my share of green recordists join forums to ask inane questions and they get appropriate responses. I realize that you and others here have a great deal more experience than I do, and was hoping you would be willing to impart some of your hard-won knowledge with regard to what pitfalls you might avoid if you were to advise your younger self.

 

I know this is not an easy question to answer, as there are many tools and setups for different scenarios. But I'm not asking you to answer for me, I'm asking you to answer for YOU.

 

Perhaps that wasn't clear, and if so, I'm sorry. I have gotten some great info and REALLY appreciate those who have taken time to share their thoughts.

 

 

-Kyle

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If you were starting over, knowing what you know now (which I don't mind saying is much more than I know) and wanting to make intelligent purchases, where would you start?

s/h Sound Devices 302

new Tascam DR-40

s/h Sennheiser 416 or new Rode NTG-3

new or s/h K-Tek boom pole (your budget, your choice)

new Sennheiser G3 wireless sets (two)

new Oscar Sound Tech OST-801 lag mics (two)

new or s/h breakaway cable (like a Remote Audio CABETACFP33)

a bag to hold everything (like a Petrol PS607)

 

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John, I was responding to a generally pat answer to an honest question. I trust that if you had visited my site or looked me up on AllMusic, you might not assume that I think "If I buy the right gear, I'll be a pro", or that I don't realize "almost everything in location sound isn't primarily about the gear -- it's about building relationships, getting repeat clients."

 

I know you don't know me, and I'm not trolling here. I have seen my share of green recordists join forums to ask inane questions and they get appropriate responses. I realize that you and others here have a great deal more experience than I do, and was hoping you would be willing to impart some of your hard-won knowledge with regard to what pitfalls you might avoid if you were to advise your younger self.

 

I know this is not an easy question to answer, as there are many tools and setups for different scenarios. But I'm not asking you to answer for me, I'm asking you to answer for YOU.

 

Perhaps that wasn't clear, and if so, I'm sorry. I have gotten some great info and REALLY appreciate those who have taken time to share their thoughts.

 

 

-Kyle

   

The problem here, Kyle, is that it appears you've decided that since you don't like the answer, you'll discount the response as not helpful and not taking the "time to share thoughts."  Perhaps I'm misreading how you meant that, but neither is the truth and neither makes you appear open to input. 

 

We all love the toys and we all like playing with them.  As an unreformed equipment junkie, I know that better than most, but your comment, "...and from my perspective (which is a studio background), signal path becomes EVEN MORE important when you are trying to capture clean, unaltered signal." sounds patronizing at best and like a rank beginner at worst (see Senator Mike's comments).  I'm hoping neither is where you're really coming from.

 

For the record, I did impart some of my "hard-won knowledge" with regard to what pitfalls I might avoid if I were to advise my younger self."  ...And it was excellent advice -- echoed by several of the wisest, most experienced, and most knowledgeable people who hang out here. 

 

I'm sorry, but no matter how you phrase, rephrase, or repackage, "I know it isn't primarily about the equipment, but what equipment should I buy to become a sound mixer?", it has become a tired and worn out cliche.  If you want to be taken seriously, ask something other than what the last hundred eager wannabes to show up here have asked. 

 

And, no, I haven't visited your web site.  Now, you're issuing homework assignments? 

 

If you were spending a day on set with me and displayed this much resistance to listening and learning, it would likely be your only day. 

 

I'm guessing what's probably happening here is that you've realized a notable level of accomplishment in post so you rail at thinking of yourself as a beginner again.  Well, in some ways you are.  What you may not realize is that many of us here also have experience on the post side of sound and what we're offering is solid advice.

 

I've voiced it many times.  If I have a green A2 or A3 on set I'd much rather have someone who knows nothing but is willing to listen, than to have someone who spends energy trying to convince me how much they already know.  You may wish to give this some thought, because your previous sound experience could actually work against you in this regard.

 

Please, sit back.  Chill.  Take it all in and learn what you're capable of.  You might even surprise yourself.

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thumbs_up.gif to John B!

 

I wish it were merely a matter of equipment! Unfortunately, the equipment might be the least important thing, assuming it's all at or above a certain level.

 

I left out one thing: you also have to have the stamina to get through long shooting days over arduous conditions. I thought I was prepared for that, but it's not the same thing sitting behind a console and toiling for 13-14-15 hours a day as it is to be on location working even 10-12 hours. Getting to the location, setting up, dealing with the camera department, keeping our equipment out of harm's way, avoiding RF problems, solving power issues, getting some kind of usable signal to the camera, making sure the timecode is straight... all of these are non-audio problems that are sometimes enormously difficult. 

 

Again, there are literally thousands of discussions on this website on a hundred different topics, all the way from wireless lav wiring to dealing with talent to the art of booming, to how to set up a cart (or a bag), how to buy used equipment, how to get a proper deal memo, and on and on. I bet there's 1000 years' of experience between all the working members here, and trust me, there's a lot to learn. As long as I've been in the business (I'm embarrassed to say it's 40 years this month, but I started early... though only 6 of those have been sound-related), I like the fact that I learn something new on every shoot. Some of these things are trivial, some profound, some operational, some instinctive. 

 

I can truthfully say after 6 years, I now have a much clearer picture about the vast number of things I don't know. When I started, I thought I knew a lot more. Life has a tendency to keep you humble, especially when you keep your eyes and ears open.

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as a rank newbie, I agree with Marc and John above. I am, at least somewhat, aware of your accomplishments in the recording studio and I'm pretty sure I've seen you around the marsh or the womb in the past, though I admit it's been a while. If so, I know you can handle any ribbing the guys here can dish out...  The basic gear advice that you've been given thus far will serve you well, but in my opinion, the things you should focus on learning the fastest are set etiquette, chains of command, the lingoes and secret handshakes, how to deal with producers and how to meet their expectations and know how they are going to try to play you (similar to the music business, just a different set of tricks). Basically, if you haven't been on set much, do whatever you can to get there.

 

Maybe you can check out Crew C's thread "Who I am Today" and tell us a bit about yourself to help frame the conversation.

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The problem here, Kyle, is that it appears you've decided that since you don't like the answer, you'll discount the response as not helpful and not taking the "time to share thoughts." Perhaps I'm misreading how you meant that, but neither is the truth and neither makes you appear open to input.

We all love the toys and we all like playing with them. As an unreformed equipment junkie, I know that better than most, but your comment, "...and from my perspective (which is a studio background), signal path becomes EVEN MORE important when you are trying to capture clean, unaltered signal." sounds patronizing at best and like a rank beginner at worst (see Senator Mike's comments). I'm hoping neither is where you're really coming from.

For the record, I did impart some of my "hard-won knowledge" with regard to what pitfalls I might avoid if I were to advise my younger self." ...And it was excellent advice -- echoed by several of the wisest, most experienced, and most knowledgeable people who hang out here.

I'm sorry, but no matter how you phrase, rephrase, or repackage, "I know it isn't primarily about the equipment, but what equipment should I buy to become a sound mixer?", it has become a tired and worn out cliche. If you want to be taken seriously, ask something other than what the last hundred eager wannabes to show up here have asked.

And, no, I haven't visited your web site. Now, you're issuing homework assignments?

If you were spending a day on set with me and displayed this much resistance to listening and learning, it would likely be your only day.

I'm guessing what's probably happening here is that you've realized a notable level of accomplishment in post so you rail at thinking of yourself as a beginner again. Well, in some ways you are. What you may not realize is that many of us here also have experience on the post side of sound and what we're offering is solid advice.

I've voiced it many times. If I have a green A2 or A3 on set I'd much rather have someone who knows nothing but is willing to listen, than to have someone who spends energy trying to convince me how much they already know. You may wish to give this some thought, because your previous sound experience could actually work against you in this regard.

Please, sit back. Chill. Take it all in and learn what you're capable of. You might even surprise yourself.

John, I don't know where to begin here. I can't tell if you're annoyed or if you think I'm annoyed or what. Believe me, this whole discussion has been "Chill" on my end.

If I don't like the answer, I suppose it's because I asked the question wrong. I regret using the term "intelligent purchases" rather than "intelligent choices". I really didn't want this to be (strictly) about equipment. And I can only assume that because I wasn't clear in my inquiry, and because you guys apparently get a million "what should I buy" questions, you assumed that's what I was asking.

And I wasn't assigning homework. Just hoping it might indicate that while I realize I am completely new to THIS SIDE of things, that I'm not clueless. I spent many hours as a studio assistant, observing other engineers, and learning EVERYTHING I can. I believe this is an integral part of learning the craft. And as I stated in my original post, I am aware that you know more about this than I do.

And I do know what I'm capable of. No surprises.

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as a rank newbie, I agree with Marc and John above. I am, at least somewhat, aware of your accomplishments in the recording studio and I'm pretty sure I've seen you around the marsh or the womb in the past, though I admit it's been a while. If so, I know you can handle any ribbing the guys here can dish out...  The basic gear advice that you've been given thus far will serve you well, but in my opinion, the things you should focus on learning the fastest are set etiquette, chains of command, the lingoes and secret handshakes, how to deal with producers and how to meet their expectations and know how they are going to try to play you (similar to the music business, just a different set of tricks). Basically, if you haven't been on set much, do whatever you can to get there.

 

Maybe you can check out Crew C's thread "Who I am Today" and tell us a bit about yourself to help frame the conversation.

 

 

Hi Ryan,

Thank you. I'll do that.

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"and was hoping you would be willing to impart some of your hard-won knowledge with regard to what pitfalls you might avoid if you were to advise your younger self. "

this forum is full of what you are looking for... do some reading, and do some searching (use Google, and jwsoundgroup.net as your first search term).

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