Mark LeBlanc Posted June 22, 2013 Report Share Posted June 22, 2013 Greetings all, Just a heads up on issues relating to sync in the latest Red Epic Firmware Version 4.0.12 Even with a timecode box riding the camera, this build of the Epic firmware will "Slip" timecode up to 2-3 frames either on Plus or Minus of what shows up on the Slate. The Actual Timecode shown in RedCine-X and what's shown on the slate are off. The Editor is having the "Slip" the audio into sync for editorial which will cause an issue later down the pipeline when attempting to conform back in Protools and the "Rouge" timecode of the video clips will cause my Production Audio to be out of sync.The editor is now logging each clips "Offset" which will hopefully be able to help post guys fix timecode issues on there end without having to do it by sight.. This camera never ceases to amaze me.. Not in a positive way.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 The Editor is having the "Slip" the audio into sync for editorial which will cause an issue later down the pipeline when attempting to conform back in Protools and the "Rouge" timecode of the video clips will cause my Production Audio to be out of sync. I would tell them "treat it like film" and simply use the camera timecode to get close. Use the slate clap for exact sync. Link the sound and picture together, and they'll stay synced forever (or until they unlink them). Pictures were edited this way for about 70 years prior to Avid, and it works very well. I have no idea why editors go so crazy when this happens, especially given that it takes somewhere between :30 seconds and 1 minute to sync each take. If you have 120 takes, that's a couple of hours of assistant editor work... and if you're really fast, it's half that time. I would also tell them not to sync up within RedCineX-Pro, but instead sync up within the editing program (with all of the tracks). Otherwise, they won't be able to export OMF files later on for sound editing and mixing. I'm amazed that people complain about something this trivial. Tell them to revert the camera firmware to an earlier known good version and perhaps that will help for the immediate future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headpooch Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier Davenport Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 This 2-3 frame thing is my experience with the RED One, and the Editor was of the opinion that "2-3 frames is the best it can do...", wouldn't surprise me with Epic, it fails in most other areas as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Johnson Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 We have been having the same timecode issues with the Epics with the earlier firmware for two years now so I am actually relieved that someone else is experiencing the same. We have long suspected that its the Red timecode at fault. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark LeBlanc Posted June 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 I mentioned it mainly because a newly hired producer was attempting to put the blame on me because the Audio was out of sync..Argh.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted June 24, 2013 Report Share Posted June 24, 2013 This is why I always insist on using a timecode slate. If sound is identical to the slate, then that's 2 sources out of three that are right. If it's only the camera that's wrong, that's the issue. I usually point out, "the picture is out of sync with sound -- not vice-versa." What's scary is that this is happening even with a timecode box on the camera! Not good. Usually my experience is that there's a 1-frame or 2-frame offset, but it's constant all day long. Not a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkautzsch Posted June 24, 2013 Report Share Posted June 24, 2013 Looks like another case of having to send TC to the cam's audio track. Good to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmgoodin Posted June 24, 2013 Report Share Posted June 24, 2013 One question. Was the Tri-Level sync output from the Lockit box pluged into the Epic Genlock in? And was the Epic set to external sync? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier Davenport Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 This is why I always insist on using a timecode slate. If sound is identical to the slate, then that's 2 sources out of three that are right. If it's only the camera that's wrong, that's the issue. I usually point out, "the picture is out of sync with sound -- not vice-versa." What's scary is that this is happening even with a timecode box on the camera! Not good. Usually my experience is that there's a 1-frame or 2-frame offset, but it's constant all day long. Not a big deal. I had the same experience, i had the editor on the phone saying "your sound is out of synch blah, blah, blah", and I asked him to look at the time code slate and he eventually realised that the camera was 2 - 3 frames out constantly as the slate was exact. He rang back the next day and apologised, and then complained that it was never the same amount of frames out, and would vary, which would annoy him even more. I told him that I thought that RED made a crap product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 I try to leave out the badmouthing of Red (or any other camera), and just say, "all digital cameras are essentially computers, they have an inherent built-in processing delay, and there are factors where sometimes the delays are inconsistent. With audio, it's exactly right on a subframe level, assuming everything is working." And then I let them draw their own conclusions. I try not to get into pissing masses with the camera department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Tsai Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 I own an Epic and have to admit timecode doesn't seem to be top priority with Red. The camera tends to lose a frame on every power cycle when running on internal TC. But when I have my camera constantly jammed to a Lockit I have never seen it slip 3 frames. Every now and then it would have an offset of 1 frame after power cycle but rarely 2 (tho I think that might be due to hitting record too fast after power up and not allowing it to properly ingest the TC) Sometimes I'd have sync issues on 3D rigs, and that has gen lock, TC and gig-e connected. So sync issues are known to crop up now and then with Reds (and even Alexas, but I've rarely worked with them so I'm not one to make any calls) and these issues is suppose to be taken care of by the DIT and informing post of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Finlan Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 One question. Was the Tri-Level sync output from the Lockit box pluged into the Epic Genlock in? And was the Epic set to external sync? I recently finished a film shot on the Red Epic and I had insisted the tri-level sync be plugged into the genlock input to ensure the tc was synced to the start of each frame even though we were shooting single camera. By chance I was talking to the editor today and he actually mentioned how well everything was syncing up. This may be the secret of successfully putting tc on the Red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark LeBlanc Posted June 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2013 Joe, Good info!! Gonna see if production will pony up for a sync box with tri-level... Thx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
api Posted June 29, 2013 Report Share Posted June 29, 2013 Mark, which sync box were you using and what was the project frame rate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirror Posted June 29, 2013 Report Share Posted June 29, 2013 Why do you guy get worried about this stuff? I give them an XLR with good sound falling out the end of it. That is the end of my responsibility as far as getting sound into their camera. Let them figure it out - it's their CAMERA GEAR. It all sounds good on my end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark LeBlanc Posted June 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2013 23.98 sync box is the Denecke SB-3. Was on a project just a few weeks before with Epic Firmware vintage this past Spring and had no issues with sync. It was this last rev that seemed to go haywire with sync.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted June 30, 2013 Report Share Posted June 30, 2013 Why do you guy get worried about this stuff? I give them an XLR with good sound falling out the end of it. That is the end of my responsibility as far as getting sound into their camera. Let them figure it out - it's their CAMERA GEAR. It all sounds good on my end. We're all part of the same team: getting the movie (or TV show or whatever) done. If we can help discover a solution, it's good for everybody. To Mark L: have you asked the DP or the camera owner to check with Red Support (949-206-7900) and investigate to see if the problem can be duplicated and if there's a solution? If things worked before this firmware revision but then broke after it, then it seems to me that Red should have the ability to troubleshoot and solve the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Tsai Posted June 30, 2013 Report Share Posted June 30, 2013 Why do you guy get worried about this stuff? I give them an XLR with good sound falling out the end of it. That is the end of my responsibility as far as getting sound into their camera. Let them figure it out - it's their CAMERA GEAR. It all sounds good on my end. um, this is a thread about timecode syncing...... and all too often various people try to place blame on sound when the issue is with the camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirror Posted June 30, 2013 Report Share Posted June 30, 2013 um, this is a thread about timecode syncing...... and all too often various people try to place blame on sound when the issue is with the camera. You're right. Forgive me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted June 30, 2013 Report Share Posted June 30, 2013 I'm dreading getting a RED project. Thankfully, Alexa is remaining in my immediate and foreseeable future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Pert Posted June 30, 2013 Report Share Posted June 30, 2013 Thanks for the info on the new firmware. I've been working on a Red Epic project for the past couple weeks and avoided sync issues by strapping on an sb-3 which has worked for me in the past. Hopefully camera dept. hasn't updated to the new firmware I'll check when I get in today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 I'm dreading getting a RED project. Thankfully, Alexa is remaining in my immediate and foreseeable future. Honestly, it's not that big a deal. I've done four or five Epic projects this year and they've been fine. But... Deichen and I are about to start a feature, and I was somewhat relieved to be told it would all be on Alexa. If only for the fan issue, that's a big relief, especially in this long hot summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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