Jeremy Katz Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Hello, I am looking for a decent stereo pair of mics to record an orchestra and choir in a nice sounding hall. Has anyone tried the RØDE NT5's? On a related note, what are everyone's thoughts and experiences on using a coincidental pair of cardioids versus a spaced pair of omni's for this purpose? Thanks for any and all input! P.S. I know "use my ears," "it depends..." But just looking for a starting point and some educated input. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim M Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Your very lucky. Although like anything takes a ton of practice. If I wasn't doing film work this would be my dream job. Unfortunately you can't just do a stereo pair and call it a day. You need many mics. If you don't have that option maybe do a decca tree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Katz Posted July 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Thanks Tim, I am pretty excited for this one, should be fun. If I could, I'd do it properly but the budget won't allow it this time. It's really just a b-roll with nats situation. So I'm trying to get the best sound I can with basically 4 mics or less. I own a coupled large diaphragm condensers (NT1 and 2), a couple 58's, and I'm looking to add a stereo pair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Rose Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 You said this is b-roll, so mono is definitely in your track's future (even if the editor keeps it in stereo, you know some viewers will be mono). So if you go with spaced omnis, be sure to mono your phones and verify that it's compatible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Radlauer Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Maybe rent some nice mics.. U87s or akg414s Spaced pair out front and a MS setup in the middle.. Technically that's 5 inputs.. Anyway you could make that happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 The Rodes will be fine. Schoeps or Neumann SDCs would be better, but not hugely better . For simple fast and good I'd suggest an ORTF config-- you can do it with a single hang or one (tall) stand. Use what time you have to find a sweet spot for them. The right place will likely be closer in (front-back) and higher straight up than you might think. 6 feet back of the conductor and 18 ft up is a good place to start (if they let you). phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tourtelot Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 You certainly do not need "many mics" to record orchestra, choirs, ensembles, opera, or anything that is (primarily) acoustic. This work has become my day job and it's mostly that I get, or at least my clients think so, stellar sound with a main pair. That pair comes in many styles; spaced omnis, ORTF, MS and Blumlein figure of eights. I occasionally use spot mics but extra mics more often come as omni flanker outboard of a main pair for very wide groups; large symphonies, wide choirs, etc. Sometimes a featured soloist needs a spot but it mostly doesn't make it into the mix because the composer has written the piece with the aural space needed to hear the soloist without help. To my ears, spot mics always seem pasted on and multi micing an acoustic ensemble is the devil's work; flat, one dimensional, sterile, air-less. Decca, EMI, RCA got along for years using carefully place main pairs (or if you were Decca, a trio of Neumann M50 mics) and made magical recordings. FWIW, my go-to pair if I walk into a new hall with a new group is a Schoeps Mk4 ORTF pair; almost always works. I use a Royer SF12 Blumlein on choirs, Schoeps Mk5 omnis with flankers for orchestras and a Schoeps MS pair for smaller ensembles like quartets. But I have no rules and so much depends on the hall and the group. Mk5 heads are so great for this because they switch from omni to cardioid and those two patterns will do as a main pair in a high percentage of situations. If you have only the Rode pair, it will certainly work. Use your ears to find a nice spot for them and record a very nice stereo track. BTW, Phil's placement measurements are a great place to start. He knows of what he speaks D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tourtelot Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Oh, and if you want to see a lot of mics on an orchestra, drop by a scoring session. That last one I visited had almost 200 mic inputs! Wow. D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 I've done several orchestras with a X Y pair of Schoeps 641 with great results. Put the mics a few feet behind and above the conductor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackdrobin Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 an orchestra and choir in a nice sounding hall. Well, you've got that going for you. I would keep it simple, and I'm sure the Rode's in an XY config will do well. Above and behind the conductor if possible, as has been said, and I bet you'll be pleasantly surprised by how well it sounds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdutaillis Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 You certainly do not need "many mics" to record orchestra, choirs, ensembles, opera, or anything that is (primarily) acoustic. This work has become my day job and it's mostly that I get, or at least my clients think so, stellar sound with a main pair. That pair comes in many styles; spaced omnis, ORTF, MS and Blumlein figure of eights. I occasionally use spot mics but extra mics more often come as omni flanker outboard of a main pair for very wide groups; large symphonies, wide choirs, etc. Sometimes a featured soloist needs a spot but it mostly doesn't make it into the mix because the composer has written the piece with the aural space needed to hear the soloist without help. To my ears, spot mics always seem pasted on and multi micing an acoustic ensemble is the devil's work; flat, one dimensional, sterile, air-less. Decca, EMI, RCA got along for years using carefully place main pairs (or if you were Decca, a trio of Neumann M50 mics) and made magical recordings. FWIW, my go-to pair if I walk into a new hall with a new group is a Schoeps Mk4 ORTF pair; almost always works. I use a Royer SF12 Blumlein on choirs, Schoeps Mk5 omnis with flankers for orchestras and a Schoeps MS pair for smaller ensembles like quartets. But I have no rules and so much depends on the hall and the group. Mk5 heads are so great for this because they switch from omni to cardioid and those two patterns will do as a main pair in a high percentage of situations. If you have only the Rode pair, it will certainly work. Use your ears to find a nice spot for them and record a very nice stereo track. BTW, Phil's placement measurements are a great place to start. He knows of what he speaks D. This guy knows what he's talking about. A well placed stereo pair will always sound better when recording these kind of performances that a bunch of spot mics. I highly recommend Schoeps or DPA. Personally I like and ORTF configuration as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tourtelot Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Oh and my other $.02. An ORTF pair sounds way better to me than an XY pair. Same mics, just as easy to mount. In fact, I think XY pairs sound, well how do I put this politely?, not so good. D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 I totally second the ORTF suggestion. It's somewhat easier to set-up than a lot of the other options and I personally prefer the sound over an XY arrangement. It's not neccessarily mono compatible, though. Also I've found that ORTF can be tricky to arrange on some stereo bars, so make sure you have all the parts for this. The NT-5s will be fine. Of course, Schoeps or Neumann may sound nicer, but the Rodes are perfectly good mics. Proper placement is probably way more important. Once you have taken the time to carefully set up your main rig, why not use the other pair on something else? Maybe an AB pair on the choir, maybe a spaced A/B on the entire group, maybe a spot mic on a quiet woodwind (if there are any). Mixing additional mics with the main pair can be very difficult, though, so only do it if there is time to spare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 I'm a fan of M-S... excellent mono compatibility, too... yeah, the conductor has the best spot in the house, so above and behind... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymz Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Last one I did was above/behind the conductor (well, behind a piano as well in my case). On the recommendation of a veteren classical recordist, I used a pair of Schoeps MK21 wide-cardioid capsules in an AB spaced pair config (3m high) going straight into a 744t. This video has the results (no EQ/Compression) http://vimeo.com/29926788 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonG Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Id like to mention that there are a pair of Rode NT5s at Trew Audio Los angeles in the consignment area. I believe the price was around $300 for the pair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Katz Posted July 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Wow thank you everyone for the great info! I think I've settled on going with the NT5's using the ORTF technique. Now all I have to does get my hands on a tall enough stand and a proper mount in time for the gig. Thanks again everyone for your help. I'll report back after the gig is over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackdrobin Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Just be sure to check that it sums to mono nicely. Will you get a chance to record and check a rehearsal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Katz Posted July 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 I'm not sure how much time I'll have to dial everything in. I will definitely check mono ASAP and may throw up a single omni (all I will have) as a backup for mono. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 " a tall enough stand " I prefer to hang them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek H Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 Do you guys cue the stereo array directly at the group or do you set the rig level and keep the group more in the lobe of the mics' pattern? NT5 vs. Oktava mk12? Any opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkRall Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 If money is not a issue I would recommend the DPA 4011C, I own 2 of them, they are so small and light weight perfect for XY ORTF or what ever you like, they also great all around mics for boom, vocals and instruments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian P Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 http://youtu.be/fguw5I6MxEo interesting to hear different stereo techniques with sennheiser 8020/8040 in a church Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek H Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 Okay that wins the prize for most overpriced stereo bar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efksound Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 Hi all Thanks for the great information, I've been also approached to record an full orchestra, probably for B roll / BTS but they want to have the full sound recording of the event. The concert is taking place outdoors, so wind protection of the mics will be necessary. My idea was to use the equipment I already have. Will a pair of CMC641 in Baby Ball Gags in a ORTF configuration above and behind the conductor be enough ? Or since it's an open air outdoor event will a stereo pair won't be enough? I also have a pair of MK12 which I could use with omnis as AB pair or with the fig of 8 adapter as MS stereo rig and Audio Technica MS stereo shotgun. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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