Philip Perkins Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 Orchestra, w/o solos: 2 mics great, 4 mics (as L/R outriggers and 3 to 6 db down in the mix) better. I still like ORTF better than AB, and don't worry a whole lot about mono anymore. Decca Tree is cool but fussier to rig. The bottom line is that above a certain basic level of gear it's pretty much about the ensemble and the hall, no matter how many mics you play. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karri Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 ps: Whatever you do, please please please don't mic the French Horns from the rear. Please. Ha, I was recently doing some recordings of single orchestra instruments for education purposes, and some of the players were very worried that my dialogue mic might be for the instrument, apparently some recordings with... unorthodox micing positions had been made some point. It'll be interesting to hear the end results for that project after it goes through post, though, since it was done in a training room with not much space due to set setup, lighting etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Visser Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 Just remember that when recording orchestras and choirs, you have the obvious instruments and voices, but the room itself is perhaps the next most important instrument, and THAT is what the mics are actually recording. If your not recoding performers in a good room, an accurate recording method like ORTF may not be the best option (will sound like a bad room). Perhaps an AB pair a little bit closer than normal and reliance on some spots would give better results. Every scenario is best evaluated with an engineer's ear and experience, and there is no one magic approach for every situation. X-Y good even sound, works in moderate to excellent rooms, nice stereo image, although center weighting can sometimes lack the desired sense of space. M-S can allow post manipulation of direct / vs room sound, nice if your not trying to accentuate the room (moving more towards mono), but stereo image can be inaccurate. Might be great for sound for video, but perhaps not the best for archival recording of concert sound. ORTF is probably capable of the most accurate stereo rendition, but can be defeated by the room and is more finicky with respect to placement. It also tends to be a bit lean on the low end. ORTF combined with a closer AB pair may provide good balance in some situations. A-B strength is simplicity, less variables in setup, or at least more linear / predictable changes in results with respect to setup changes, good tonal balance, but not as capable of painting as detailed stereo field as crossed methods. Adding devices like Jecklin disc can help to reduce decorrelation of the image. Decca tree is an evolution of the A-B method. It has many of the disadvantages of A-B, less localized stereo image, and the addition of more mics does not help this. It can provide a bit of spot / center reinforcement and hard panning outriggers helps provide false phase cues that gives the sense of a wider stereo image. This method has gone through years of evolution and was birthed out of of a real working mans knowledge-base from the classic heyday of recording. It also happens to be well suited to being adapted to many spaces, since it can always fall back to a A-B'esque rendering, allowing a safety net that ORTF doesn't provide. (if your tree is not performing like you would have hoped, you have somewhere to go. If ORTF is not working out, your stuck with it and then suddenly you realize you have two directional mics pointed completely away from your performers, there's nothing you can do to make it sound better, hopefully the performance hasn't started already once you made this realization) The modern audience may expect a more exciting perspective than what was considered the standard from the RCA Victar days - keep that in mind. Doesn't hurt to throw in a spot mic on a soloist, even if the only thing the mic is recording is the soloist's ego. Don't forget your audience mics, if not covered appropriately with your existing setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 I found this beautiful link from DPA microphones.http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic-University/Stereo-Techniques/stereo-recordings.aspx PS. DPA website rock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Immoral Mr Teas Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Hi, I sped through all the replies to this, and I'm being quick about my own post (for a welcome change), so apologies if I end up repeating other replies or ask questions here (the not-needing-an-answer type) that have been explained. A few thoughts - first, check up the Rycote website for a link somewhere for the Williams papers on 2 and 5 channel recording: especially The Stereophonic Zoom, which is an excellent primer on 2 channel stereo recording (omni through to fig8) but also the Multichannel paper, essentially an expansion of 'zoom', dealing only with the cardioid pattern (and focus on the front three and ignore the back two channels for basic theory). Second - are you asked or restricted to 2 channels, and is mono an expected requirement? Might be worth attempting to place either an 'integrated' or separate mono mic. Like Glen, but perhaps when younger, I grew up playing in orchestras, and I assisted in the recording of many when older, and every situation can have its differences. And I like mono, 2 channel and 3 channel setups ... If recording 2 channel especially, but also relevant to 3 channel (Decca or 3 cardioid or 2 cardioid with omni centre) assess the 'recording angle' based on the size and layout of the ensemble and the size of the hall. Listen, as you seem to be for shortcomings, especially the middl and sides. If recording 2 cardioids then The Stereophonic Zoom ought to point you in the right direction. Lastly remember that you can always (hopefully) reposition the ensemble to address any issues such as holes or indefinition for central or outlying players, or even move sections of the orchestra about - swap the 2nd violins with cellos; centralise or split back sections ... Best of luck, and enjoy, Jez Adamson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 "...The modern audience may expect a more exciting perspective than what was considered the standard from the RCA Victar days - keep that in mind." More exciting perspective than what... the composer's, conductor's, and player's intent? More exciting in who's judgement... the recording engineer? Surely not. Here's something to keep in mind: Whether RCA Victor or Dolby Labs, their stated standard goal for recording an acoustic performance is to be as a true to the original performance as possible. gt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Oh, and if you want to see a lot of mics on an orchestra, drop by a scoring session. That last one I visited had almost 200 mic inputs! Wow. D. Hey Doug. Of course, there are a lot of mics on an orchestra in a film scoring session, but creating a music bed for a film is very different than capturing a live performance, and studio acoustic design is very different than concert hall acoustic design. Even then, the mics are usually placed with listening perspective in mind, as oppose to close micing. gt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Recorded a full orchestra plus piano soloist in Italy late 2014 for a film about an Italian concert pianist http://crossingrachmaninoff.com/ My Sound Field SPS-200 slung above the conductor plus and AKG cardiode spot mike on the piano. A very quick and simple rig. The files were auditioned by Peter Jackson's Park Road Post and they jumped on the project and mixed it in 7.1 It premieres 18th July in the NZ Film Festival Cannot release and material from the production but attach two interesting files. 1- Recording of the Auckland Philharmonia in concert hall done for their website Front coincident pair AKG 460 with CK61 cardioide capsules above conductor Rear (ambience) Sanken CSS-5 stereo looking at rear ceiling of hall Post engineering by John Gray 2- Recording of the Auckland Philharmonia in rehearsal studio Sound Field SP-200 placed above conductor Decoded in post in stereo (I do have a 5.1 version also) Post engineering by Mike Bloemendal (Imaginex Studios KL) Sorry they are presented here in MP3 format mike mike APO_concert_hall.mp3 APO_rehearsal_room.mp3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Yes... I forgot about the Sound Field mic. Jeff Wexler, posts like this find me reaching for a LIKE button. gt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minister Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Rode makes fine mics. I would prefer Schoeps or DPA. But, if that is what you have at hand. And, to echo many of the others : ORTF. That's my favorite way to record groups in a GOOD space or hall as well as ambiences. Spaced OMNI's take too much experience and knowledge and trial and error. You may not have time to figure out the best place to put your spaced Omnis. ORTF will give you a good center image and great spread; it's also certainly mono compatible. Find a great place to hang if you can, or a tall stand. While the Decca tree is great over the conductor, if you only have an ORTF pair, that may not be the best place. You'lll have to see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Hi Glen, Well it was a risk at the time I bought it withe the industry here facing a recession! Bought it used but hardly so at a good price so eventually it has covered it's cost with the Italian pianist film and then a 1 month rental for use in Antarctica. On a stereo or 5.1 system the results are remarkable giving such clarity with no noise evident. Moving the "image" around in post is a weird experience. Hope things are well with you Fondest mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beartrax Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 i've used the near coincident stereo method with my schoeps over the years more than any other, it's a staple of mine to have for any music recording… that being said i should mentione i seem to have had the unfortunate pleasure of being in spaces that were not acoustically optimum, so a big part of my logic to choose nc was to eliminate some of the unwanted acoustics which would be more dominant on ortf and also a factor for me was the translation to mono listening … a few times i also combined AB with NC and was pleased … allot depends on the situation … i will also echo simple is usually just better … there's been times when i've multi tracked and i used quite a few spot mic along with the NC pair then later listening to the recording i noted the spot mic made the mix less desirable than just the NC pair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 Interesting to know. When recording with cameras and subsequent editing in mind the use of some spot mikes will allow the sound balance to be adjusted to match the shot changes and close ups. I have several great music DVD's and I get annoyed when a particular instrument is seen in a close shot but not clearly audible. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beartrax Posted July 21, 2015 Report Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Interesting to know. When recording with cameras and subsequent editing in mind the use of some spot mikes will allow the sound balance to be adjusted to match the shot changes and close ups. I have several great music DVD's and I get annoyed when a particular instrument is seen in a close shot but not clearly audible. mike I to have been disappointed when watching something I can't hear... Perfect situation for spot mics to enhance a recording, and these days multitrack is made easy... Most of the music recordings I've made have not had cameras envolved so I listened with my eyes closed 😃 and I often enjoy the smooth and simple reproduction of just a stereo pair of mic Edited July 21, 2015 by beartrax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Waldron Posted July 21, 2015 Report Share Posted July 21, 2015 If it's a live concert I use this and be done. Too many mic stands and somebody starts complaining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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