Michael Miramontes Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Back in my bill collector days we would have to resort to all kinds of "grey line tactics" to get the stubborn ones to pay. We use to have a system that would show us the client's relatives, phone numbers, socials, addresses, etc. So, we would leave a polite message with every single one of the debtor's family members and sure enough within hours we were getting a check payment over the phone. We never violated the law since we never disclosed the debtors personal info to the relatives. However, if you use a certain tone and expressed that it is an "urgent business matter in which the borrower needs to call back for" then everyone pretty much figures out that its a collection call. We would also call their work and get a hold of them there. That also did the trick however you must stop calling them at their place of employment as soon as they, or anyone at their job, requests it. People would throw the "harassment" word out there all too frequently however you're not harassing anyone if you're collecting a debt properly. Jack, if you need me to make a few phone calls for you then just let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Mills Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 This company is media specialized, and very effective (and legal) http://www.szabo.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beartrax Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 in my unfortunate experience and advise from lawyer friends unless it's a 5 digit amount of money or more it doesn't seem worth hiring an agency or lawyer ... small claims court may be the way to, however it will need to be the small claims court where the job took place, which can complicate matters for either party if each is not based there, and this can also be a advantage or disadvantage for either party depending, for example if hired as a local from an out of town client then the local small claims court applies and if it goes to court then the client needs to travel in to defend at their own additional cost... each municipality's small claims court also has limitations on the dollar amount and it will cost to file, filing costs will be reimbursed if ruled in your favor... also small claims is not entirely based on law it's ruled on by a judge & is more based on fairness then actual law, however laws are observed, often in small claims an individual filing against a larger company or corporation may appear to being unfairly taken advantage of by the larger company, a big business taking advantage of the small man situation, which some may see as an advantage ... in my experience a professional written letter or email stating intent to file with small claims prompts a settlement for all or a negotiated rate, if no response from a letter then once small claims papers are recieved by a negligent client there is usually a settlement before going to court good luck, these situations are no fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denielle Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 I'm with Henchman... It Happened to me. I spent nine months trying to get paid and would receive tiny payments and lies about payment schedules. I called lawyers and tried to file with the labor union. But, it is really tricky... the employment terms as an independent contractor, vs permanent employee. Anyway, nothing was working. I was texting the exec producer/director every day. It was horrible. Finally, I made an exhausted post on Facebook, just warning fellow mixers not to take jobs from the production company. It turns out he scammed a bunch of people. Word got out quickly, I guess, because within 24 hours I got a call saying the balance would be wired to me immediately, if I took his name off Facebook. I was paid, and deleted my post. It was a shocking, and pretty disheartening experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 Small claims court and work on the fact that you have mechanical copyright of the sound material until the production company fully pays for it mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Harber Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 It usually isn't very difficult to figure out who the client of the folks that owe you money. Mention to the folks who owe you that you will be contacting their client letting them know that they have been collecting money and not paying you or others for services rendered. This usually gets things moving. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Wang Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 Anytime I work for a new client, one that is NOT from an established and known company, I politely tell them since I have no prior business relationship with them I need the payment for services at the end of the show... HAVE THAT IN WRITING... This has worked great for me... I seldom work for strangers much anymore, and if I do, as I said, it is usually from a known company. i do the same all the time to 1st time work together client. or i just tell them i will hold one or two key sound files until i get fully paid for long project. That works very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 I sympathize very much with anyone having to deal with a scumbag non-paying client. Some clients DO get into trouble, but the good ones are communicative and apologetic and happy to come up with a payment plan. For a the rest, a local co. can sometimes be shamed, as was said, by public exposure of their non-payment. This has serious consequences esp for a small company, because even though all the cam rental/post/prop/G+E etc houses are highly competitive with each other, they also VERY willingly share info with each other about non-payers. These folks listen carefully to what crew people say about producers in this regard, rest assured. Often producers do NOT get all their money upfront from their clients, so if suddenly all the crew they want to hire and all the rentals they need say they want payment in advance, they can't produce their job. The trust aspect of this business, at least in my area, is much-treasured, so people come down on violators of that trust VERY hard. For an out of town prod co things are much tougher--although calls to rental houses and soundies etc in their area might get some results too. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Rose Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 Mention to the folks who owe you that you will be contacting their client Be careful doing this. It works - I've used the threat - but you're also running a serious risk if you actually contact the client. My lawyer informs me that there's a concept where you can be sued for 'interfering with the contracts of others'. So under this theory, deadbeat prodn company could turn around and sue you if you actually contact the client. Would they do this? Does what I'm saying apply in your state or circumstance? Is it even a real principle? I don't know. IANAL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 Twice in 12 years I have drafted letters that I emailed to non paying production companies that I threaten to send to the clients. Both times I got a phone call within 1 hour of sending. One company requested my bank info to wire me the money that day and another overnighted me a check for the next day Both were past Net 180 usually I find when I haven't been paid its because of disorganization and poor management not lack of money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 (edited) Sorry, but I note that this debt is over one year old, and depending on local requirements, it may well be too late for many options... I mis-read Edited August 7, 2013 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Sorry, but I note that this debt is over one year old, and depending on local requirements, it may well be too late for many options... Really? Which debt are you talking about? If you mean the one in the 1st posting then you note wrong as the original job was done in March of this year, Please be sure brain is engaged before mouth is put in gear. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted August 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 Thanks for all your responses so far. Here is the latest. I contacted an attorney who is a family friend. Apparently in NY I have no claim to my clients client. My only recourse is small claims court - and even if I win in court there is no way to enforce payment without going to collections. The attorney is going to be sending a legal request for payment. His thoughts is she will just ignore the letter anyway - but there is a very slight chance that she will pay. The short of it is the amount still owed is small and I have come to terms that I will never receive my money. And I have been advised by multiple people to just forget it. But this woman has been such a @#$% to me for the few months I don't want to walk away from it and make here think she won without a fight. Michael thanks for the offer - I will most likely contact you soon to go medieval on her ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toy Robot Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 I hope it works out for you Jack. I have only ever had to threaten one client with small claims court after the invoice was months overdue and I was lied to repeatedly and could prove it. Received a check within 3 days after I told them I was taking them to court. Remember that just as your time is worth money, theirs is too. At some point it will cost them even more money not to pay you than it will to just pay up, and they know it. At any rate best of luck whichever way it goes. P.S. How do people sleep at night treating people like this? I couldn't stand myself if I robbed someone like that. I just couldn't do business that way, ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Rose Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 Apparently in NY I have no claim to my clients client. As far as I understand you don't have a claim to the client's client anywhere for the money, unless they hired you. But you might be able to assert a different claim under copyright, if client uses the material and you've got a lien on it. IANAL of course. That's why this is mostly useful as a negotiating ploy rather than a threat of suit. Deadbeat producer doesn't mind if you've got a bad impression of them; there are plenty of other soundies to rip off. But they don't want their clients being bothered by copyright claims... that can cost them a client. Again, IANAL. The good lawyers are trained in negotiating strategy as well as in law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted August 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 One screwd up thing is in her last email to me she wrote"do not contact me anymore" which I was advised if I do I can now be sued for harrasment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 (edited) " I have no claim to my clients client. " While I'm with Jay, I disagree, in that you have a moral claim and they may react to being contacted about this, especially if you pull a Joe Friday, and tell them you are going after them for copyright infringement since you still have an ownership claim on the recordings... " she wrote"do not contact me anymore" " don't you contact her, but have that lawyer try, while you contact her client... DISCLAIMER: I am not even an attorney spokesperson! Edited August 6, 2013 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted August 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 " I have no claim to my clients client. " While I'm with Jay, I disagree, in that you have a moral claim and they may react to being contacted about this, especially if you pull a Joe Friday, and tell them you are going after them for copyright infringement since you still have an ownership claim on the recordings... " she wrote"do not contact me anymore" " don't you contact her, but have that lawyer try, while you contact her client... The attorney is advising me not to contact them or their client. Any direct contact can open me up to a defamation or harassment suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toy Robot Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 Hang on, so I can hire someone at said rate, NOT pay them and then tell them to stop contacting me or I can legally sue them? What the @#$% has this country come to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted August 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 Hang on, so I can hire someone at said rate, NOT pay them and then tell them to stop contacting me or I can legally sue them? What the @#$% has this country come to? Yep My only real recourse is small claims court. And even if they loose there is no way for me to get them to pay me without going to collections. Makes me wonder how many people they have screwed in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 " The attorney is advising me..." take the professional advice " What the @#$% has this country come to? " it has been that way for a long time... part of business... nothing new here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Harber Posted August 7, 2013 Report Share Posted August 7, 2013 First of all, I am NOT a lawyer. I would not ever contact the client of the person who hired you. The threat of your talking to their client should be enough. AND... If you did and clearly expressed that the person that hired you did NOT pay you based on a clear agreement then you are not defaming them. You are stating a truth and that is not illegal as long as you only express that you have not been paid and are not there to collect any money from them as the originating client. It would be up to the client to make up their mind as there may be a distinct possibility that they have paid out for a job to be done and then not had the money to those sub-contactors (you) that they hired. Express in a clear and not threatening way (if that's possible) that it may present and issue over ownership of the footage in future projects. These are all truthful things and not something, said in the right way, that could be construed as a threat but rather as a "heads up" as to how this person who hired you is doing business. I would never go this route but speaking the truth is not illegal and cannot be called defamation. If they didn't pay you they didn't pay you. Those are just facts. And that's in any country and any state. YMMV Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 7, 2013 Report Share Posted August 7, 2013 (edited) " The threat of your talking to their client should be enough. " The implied threat of your talking to their client should be enough. amen as it has been over a year, it is probably time to let it go, and hope for another 23 years until you have any similar issues... I mis-read... Edited August 7, 2013 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted August 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2013 as it has been over a year, it is probably time to let it go, and hope for another 23 years until you have any similar issues... Its been 6 months and its the principal of it now. How many people has she screwed over in the past? Not sure but my guess from her attitude and the way she has been dealing with this is I am not the first. Will I see the money? From what I am being told its unlikely. But I will make sure that she knows that I don't take crap from no one. This dog isn't going down without a fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 7, 2013 Report Share Posted August 7, 2013 " Well this dog isn't going to " mechanics lien, and / or small claims court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.