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When I know more than the editor...


JonG

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I dont know how many of you have experienced this, but I have a feeling it is becoming more and more frequent as productions hire people with less experience to save on cash, since budgets are just numbers pulled out of a hat (in the indie world) and rates are set by producers.... anyway, heres the rant:

 

I dont usually do post because on an indie level, production is basically just asking for favors by the time principal photography is done. But every now and then I will do--work on a project if I have time, approve the production audio (I will not do salvage jobs), and like the project enough. The last film I did post on, the guys really knew their stuff, and even added in a bunch of SFX and did a lot of other work that was really my job. Super cool.

 

I started a project today, which should have been started about a week ago, but Im a production sound mixer, and got busy, not realizing that something had NOT happened: The editor sent me the video, but not the project file. I was waiting for the OMF, and the producer asked today how the work was going. I explained that I was still waiting for the project file, though I should have received it almost a week ago. Im not a babysitter and it isnt my job to hold the editors hand to make sure he sends things out. I dont have a hard deadline, so I'm not going stress about other peoples problems. Well, he got right on it and had the editor send me the OMF. I got it and immediately imported it into a Pro-Tools session, but noticed that it was at true 24 fps. Then I tried importing the video file. It was at 29.98, but at 44,1kHz. My immediate thought was that there is obviously a problem here, especially since I couldnt import the video. So now here I am waiting around for the editor to get back to his bay and figure out what happened.

 

I see this sort of thing all the time. On set no one can tell me what frame rate we are shooting at, and I usually get a camera guy shorthand answer like 24 or 30, when they mean 23.98 or 29.97. Even when I'm out working on a reality show with a "legit" production company, there is usually no call sheet with any tech specs on it, so I have to figure out who is the post supervisor (if one has been hired yet) and tell the camera guys what frame rate to shoot at (one company I do a lot of work for shoots different shows at different frame rates for whatever reason).

 

Back to post: I am seeing more and more of these kids out there who dont understand frame rates, or how to properly export an OMF, so the back and fourth between me and the editor becomes a weeks long chore/tutoring session. I guess the point is that Im getting frustrated because I have to work with incompetent people more often than I would like, and any mishap in the part of the chain where I come in makes me look bad, even when I tell them what I need regarding the specs of the project, and I dont get that.

 

On a side note, the project I am starting is a project that I was the audio supervisor for and sound mixer, so the raw audio is awesome and I dont have a lot of work to do in that regard! haha

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I am seeing more and more of these kids out there who dont understand frame rates, or how to properly export an OMF, so the back and fourth between me and the editor becomes a weeks long chore/tutoring session. I guess the point is that Im getting frustrated because I have to work with incompetent people more often than I would like, and any mishap in the part of the chain where I come in makes me look bad, even when I tell them what I need regarding the specs of the project, and I dont get that.

 

I'm seeing that as well, especially for low-budget projects done by idiots. What's troubling is that one can forgive problems like this being done by students, yet now I'm seeing the same issues by 30-somethings, or even older people who have a track record and have been around for at least 10-15 years. 

 

I just wrapped a project where the day before production, we were still arguing about 23.98 and 24.00. I got the editor to agree on 23.98 and we both advised the producer to go in that direction, and that finally worked.

 

I agree that having a post sup in place to send out a memo prior to the start of production regarding frame rates, sampling frequency, bit depth, sound reports, and also camera issues (color space, frame rates, file formats), is a good idea.

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I remember when I asked an "picture editor" for 10 second handles on the dialogue OMF. He looked at me like I had two heads. He didn't know what that meant, and supposedly had cut lots of projects. I had to explain it to him, and it wasn't one of those "Ooohhh, I call those something else". He honestly had no clue what I was talking about. Baffled me.

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" When I know more than the editor..."

sure,  it happens a lot, especially when more experienced folks step down the ladder, instead of up...

and an audio supervisor may frequently know more than an editor... maybe not so much more, but different stuff than  the editor knows..

 

" The editor sent me the video, but not the project file. I was waiting for the OMF, "

waiting ?? not asking ??

" it isnt my job to hold the editors hand to make sure he sends things out. "

it is your job to ask for what you need...

 

" but Im a production sound mixer, and got busy, "

then why did you take the project on..?

 

 

" there is usually no call sheet with any tech specs on it, "

that is not what is on call sheets!                                

" figure out who is the post supervisor "

that is on the crew lists... and as Audio Supervisor, unless and until  there is a post supervisor, your job is to determine and communicate the basic info..."

" tell the camera guys what frame rate to shoot at "

well, as audio supervisor, you need to work with the DP, and others to make this determination..and spread the word as necessary...

 

" I have to work with incompetent people "

actually you made the choice...

 

" I was the audio supervisor for and sound mixer, so the raw audio is awesome "

careful,  your humility isn't showing...

 

BTW, Audio Supervisor:  how come there was no workflow test ?

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Just wait till you hear a tvc you worked on with split tracks (lav/boom) played out as a stereo file.

 

I worked for several years in the 1980s on the Ruby-Spears Chipmunks show. For the first season or two, we were still mono and routinely laid down a mono comp mix on Ch. 1 of the videotape master, and a Foreign M&E on Ch. 2 -- clearly labeled on the video slate and on the tape labels. One Saturday morning, I happened to get up early and turned on the show... and heard them broadcasting stereo, with the comp on left and the M&E on right. I hit the roof and called the producer, and he called over to NBC. The engineer there kinda shrugged and said, "eh, it sounded like stereo to me." Not too long after that, the show went to true Lt/Rt stereo, and at least we got rid of that problem.

 

But you have to wonder: how long had this problem been going on? (And it was the #1 American show on Saturday mornings for years.)

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This thread isn't just about the incompetent among us. Even the knowledgeable fall into some of the same traps.

I noticed the irony of the OP lamenting someone using shorthand numbers, quote: "and I usually get a camera guy shorthand answer like 24 or 30, when they usually mean 23.98 or 29.97."

The irony being that 23.98 is itself a "shorthand answer" for the frame rate 23.976.

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I don't claim to know everything, gosh if I did I be resting on my own island somewhere. Anyway I just finished up

9 days with a couple of so called film school people. Shooting with 2 exact cameras , AF 100, I have done my fair share of shooting and make it a habit of getting the camera manual on my IPad before the shoot.Listening to their conversations I was curious why they were having such big discussions and differences with their fstops.

I look at cam A's screen and see a ISO of 400 with a ND 2 on, on cam B I see a ISO of 1600 with ND#2 on. Both cameras were on tripods and the OIS is engaged on both cameras. This was a INT scene.

I gave a short definition of ISO , OIS and ND filters , I showed them what the OIS was doing to their shot at the end of a pan on a tripod.

They kind of looked at me like I was speaking in a different language, one says" I guess I should take some classes" I told them classes don' teach all , you have to get the manual and study it and work the camera before hand. I am thinking to myself what does this so called film school teach?

This job to me was someone just turning dials and pushing buttons until they saw a image in the VF. Kept me very amused listening to them.

To top it off, yesterday I get a call from the editor who was on location ( another film school person ) he tells me my audio files are fine but one of the cameras has a smudge like smear on the lens in every shot. I asked "and this concerns me in what way." He thought I would like to know. I asked every day how picture and sound was to the editor who was off loading every night ,he said fine. I think they were all in a big hurry for pizza and beers each night and never really looked closely.

Oh well ,I'm over it , paid and all. Just such a shame to me to see how some people work with no clue.

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there's no reason to complain IMO. 

 

people that have no clue will either eventually get a clue or will retire from the biz.  When you sign on to a production as audio lead you're taking on all of the responsibilities of that role. 

 

In well-run operations there is constant communication, as well as leadership.  Your job as part of a production is to participate in that communication, not to wait for it.  Your job as an audio lead is to step up and take some responsibility for how things are coming together. 

 

I hate these "people are idiots and I'm the greatest" bitchfests that I see in audio forums all over the internet.  They do the profession a disservice.

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I agree entirely with what SENATOR and others have said in that it is indeed YOUR JOB to ask for what you need and not simply assume they know. However, I've had enough encounters like that of the OP that I actually send the editors this link when I give them the run down of what I need. Even with such a laid out tutorial (set for FCP, but the jist of it all is pretty universal), they still get it wrong.

 

Last week, I received a reference video file that wouldn't open in Pro Tools or Quicktime. Opened it in VLC player to discover it was in a frame rate of 47.952948! The OMF was in 23.976; how the hell did that happen?

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I look at cam A's screen and see a ISO of 400 with a ND 2 on, on cam B I see a ISO of 1600 with ND#2 on. Both cameras were on tripods and the OIS is engaged on both cameras. This was a INT scene. I gave a short definition of ISO, OIS and ND filters , I showed them what the OIS was doing to their shot at the end of a pan on a tripod. They kind of looked at me like I was speaking in a different language, one says" I guess I should take some classes".

 

I try very hard not to get into cinematography discussions or arguments on sets, because I know much too much. I try as hard as I can just to stick to sound and not offer any suggestions or comments to the DP or camera department, because all they can do is react defensively. If I tell them, "hey, I think Glimmerglass will look better than a 1/4 Black Promist," they're gonna look at me like I'm from Mars -- and rightly so.

 

If I'm asked for my opinion, then I'll offer my advice as tactfully as I can. There have been many situations where I've just had to sit and stew and not say anything, even when I know that the photography might be on the verge of sailing off a cliff. As John Coffey's "Letter from Your Sound Department" article says, you never know when somebody on the set knows far more than their own jobs. 

 

What's sad for me is to see DPs struggling to fix problems that I know could be solved far more easily in post. But in fairness to them, very few DPs understand the limits of post, and not all productions have the benefit of lots of time and money for post fixes. I understand and sympathize with their belief that they need to get it right on the set. And I get that the DP is often working under the most stress of anyone on the set, except for the director.

 

To tell you the truth, usually, I'm too preoccupied with sound problems to even worry about what the camera guys are doing.

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  • 1 month later...

There are people who can edit and there are Editors.  Editors are your friends.  People who can edit are your enemies.

 

Very true. I can remember sitting at Apple's introduction of Final Cut Pro 3 when they announced, "we just sold our 200,000th copy of Final Cut Pro, so that means there's now 200,000 more editors in the world!"

 

I was the guy in the back yelling, "no! You mean there's 199,000 idiots in the world trying to cut! Less than 1000 of them are actual editors!"

 

Real editors are artists with impeccable timing, taste, and instincts. There is no software for that, no plug-in, no button -- it comes from your guts. 

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At all costs communicate ahead of time with both production team and editor asking or demanding the specs THEY require before you show up on set...  Get the email back from them and keep it until the water is well under the bridge... 

 

   On set, use the specs given by them.... It's all you can really do...

 

  By waiting until the day of the shoot you are opening a can of worms that may never crawl back into the can. Everyone will point to he said she said conversations about what they remember saying.... and it can be a mess... many times the person that gave the information is either ill equipped to do so, or, just plain wrong...  as for everyone else, with all the busy bees in a rush to do their compartmentalized jobs, are in no mindset for correct information either.

 

  This is all a shame, but that's how it usually is...

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Dialogue Editing for Motion Picture and Film, 2nd edition.

Good book. You will learn about "what you will ask the editor to give you".

 

The editor have 1.000.000 problem in his/her head.

Make a list what you need from them and send it.

 

It's not only your "problem" but both.

Learning how to collaborate with other departments

it is important rather than if you know or if you don't know "more than the editor".

 

Happy post and always positive mood.

 

:)

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  • 3 months later...

I don't claim to know everything, gosh if I did I be resting on my own island somewhere. Anyway I just finished up

9 days with a couple of so called film school people. Shooting with 2 exact cameras , AF 100, I have done my fair share of shooting and make it a habit of getting the camera manual on my IPad before the shoot.Listening to their conversations I was curious why they were having such big discussions and differences with their fstops.

I look at cam A's screen and see a ISO of 400 with a ND 2 on, on cam B I see a ISO of 1600 with ND#2 on. Both cameras were on tripods and the OIS is engaged on both cameras.

That reminds me of a similar experience years ago. I was asked to fill in as DP on a small feature for a single day, because the regular DP was off doing something else. We were doing a breakfast scene in a rented trailer in a parking lot somewhere and we had only a few lights and a consumer generator with some stingers run in from 50 yards away or so. Not a lot of light, but I opened things up and was confident it would look nice (shooting film, btw). The director asked what F-stop I was using and I told him 2.8. He cringed and said something to the effect of: "Our DP always shoots at 5.6."

 

I shrugged and said, well, with the amount of light I have, we need to shoot at 2.8. He didn't seem confident, but we did it anyway. Well, long story short, I should have listened to what he was saying because when I saw the finished film I realized that the DP had indeed shined light directly on faces to get a 5.6 reading, but the backgrounds had all fallen to nearly complete darkness, whereas my scene was properly and evenly exposed. I'm not saying I'm Haskell Wexler or anthing, but compared to the other guy's footage, well...

 

The director asked me what happened, and surprisingly I had to explain to him that a piece of film of a given sensitivity requires x amount of light to be properly exposed. If you have more light, you have to close down the iris, if you have less light, you have to open up the iris. In either case, the same amount of light is hitting the film and exposing it. Of course other physical changes occur depending on the size of your iris, etc, but the principle of exposure seemed to elude him (and the DP too, seemingly).

 

Another head scratcher.

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