Video Village sound distribution and playback. Privacy etiquette.

[Dean Gudmundson]

Gentlemen,

Catching up on the forum tonight and was curious to hear how most of you handle village audio. I own/operate a 2 camera HD Qtake package also. I mix the audio and get a freelancer to handle my Qtake when I book both sound and video. I tend to wear two hats on most of my shoots, assisting vtr operator when he's in the weeds. Video assist assistant is rare here, even getting a boom op can be problematic. I use a 664 to send hardwired 2 trk audio break aways to cameras. So I was wondering if/what the Standard MO may be in other markets.

What I've been doing is:

Hardwire XLR cable mono mix from 664 back to feed VTR.

Live feed off 664 for Comteks - xmitter on sound cart.

For playbacks off Qtake I enable a SpeakEZ mounted below Directors monitor via Behringer mixer/switcher. Along with a SpeakEZ mounted in my video cart for the gallery. Has worked well except when director wants a covert video playback with sync sound. "Kill agency audio and video, please and thank you".

I was wondering:

- Send VTR a constant pre fade feed?

- Does VTR capture sound off SDI cable back from camera and sound not provide an analog hardwire?

- Privacy: Do you mute or turn down mics between shots or do you expect VTR to mute speaker at village, if it's far enough away that speaker can be left on?

- Feed Comtek xmitter from VTR cart so everyone can listen to playback off their headsets?

-Who's responsibility to mute/fade between shot set chatter? VTR or sound mixer? I usually fade down mixer just enough to so the gallery know their Comtek battery is not dead. Sucks when 3 people stand behind you tapping you on the shoulder "I think my battery just died" when you're deep in it.

- Or producer discretely asking me to leave mics up or off between takes.

-Only once has it really been an issue with a director -uncomfortable. 99% shoots no one cares, they're too busy on laptops, phones, Pads, Starbucks order, Fugi water, a hot power strip, iPhone charger.......

Interested in how other mixers handle this potentially delicate matter.

All the best,

Dean Gudmundson

[afewmoreyears]

Do not send video a pre fade feed..... Things may end up broadcast or recorded that you don't want to be ...

 

  Kill your feed to VTR and client/ director headsets between takes, leave open for you and your rare Boom op... LOL... There is a  very rare exception to everything.... just to note..

 

 I mute the feed myself.... (MINE GLOWS BRIGHT RED-HARD TO LEAVE ON) if you are not careful you will forget to turn it back on.....  If you simply kill the faders, you will not be able to hear the set.... You can arrive at this 20 ways... depending on your set up... You can listen with a dedicated boom mic on set that does NOT go to VTR and director headsets, that way when you kill the active faders, YOU can still hear.....

 

  The concept is, you need to hear between takes, but other than your boom op, nobody else should... If the producer wants everything open, leave it open... They are paying you... NOT ONE director I know of wants their private direction to talent broadcast....  Sometimes things are said... not just to director or talent but about the shitty writing, concept or demands of others... nobody wants that broadcast. Not to mention conversations about the actors latest sexual conquests or bathroom visits... This maybe happened at the same time LOL...

 

YOU are responsible for the audio....  even to VTR.... If VTR burns you and leaves THEIR speaker open... guess what... everyone STILL looks at you, even if it was their fault...

As for the tapping on the shoulder, just announce that the audio feed is dead between takes... simple enough....

 

 Going through VTR so they can hear through headsets is rarely done, we usually only do it on a Process trailer...

 

 As for playing back takes.... Let VTR deal with it.... no VTR... Whos capturing the video to playback the take?... Who is supposed to deal with that...You.... ?   So now YOU are the VTR guy too... LOL.... You better nip that in the bud , or double your pay...

[pkautzsch]

I usually have all lavs' faders completely down inbetween takes. This ensures that no private conversation or toilet issues arise.

The boom will usually be open, mic pointing to some corner or the sky. That way something is fed to comteks, assuring people that their comteks work. I've used a dummy mic that had only this purpose once or twice.

I try to avoid muting outputs, so I can't forget unmuting them.

 

If audio is fed to VTR, I place a remote controlled speaker there and mute the screen's on-board speakers. I then will switch my speaker on whenever necessary.

Playing back through comteks can result in people frantically running to set because they hear someone calling "roll camera".

[RPSharman]

Firstly, lavs, once tested at the cart after placement, are never open unless actors are in front of camera and are rehearsing or shooting.

 

On commercials, it seems common to mute the Comteks between takes so the "clients" aren't listening to the director.  I have heard some guys play music through the Comteks during down time to make sure everyone knows they are working.  That might not always be a good idea.

 

For me, since I almost exclusively do narrative work, I leave a mic open on set all the time.  Between takes, my guys will not point at the director giving notes if it seems to be "private", but if it's a discussion on new action or dialog, then we point so we know what's going on.  That feed goes to the Comteks too, because the script supervisor might need to hear, or co-director, or producer.  People ought to be grownups and not talk shit on a set with microphones.  I like the idea of killing the Comtek feed, but I have had producers and directors and ADs who like to listen to the set during lighting just to keep up with the progress.  And I'm notorious for forgetting to turn them back on, so that's an issue too, if you mute them.

 

In terms of VTR, I send them a feed to use for playing back takes over a speaker.  That's it.  Playing back through Comteks is ONLY done if a director demands to have a more "private" playback situation.  But you are then inviting blame if something doesn't go right with the VTR playback system, even though it's not your fault.  And it can cause confusion for those wearing Comteks who aren't in front of monitors watching playback.

 

Robert

[old school]

In commercials, kill all feeds to comteks & Video assist and camera between takes, Just be sure to fade them up when you roll. Basically what AFMY's said.

CrewC

[RPSharman]

In commercials, kill all feeds to comteks & Video assist and camera between takes, Just be sure to fade them up when you roll. Basically what AFMY's said.

CrewC

 

Do you kill feed between "takes" even if camera is still rolling?  And I didn't kill feed to camera, because I figured at least it's still recorded there if I forget to push it up for Comteks.  But I guess it makes sense if you do kill Comteks for the "still rolling" moments between takes, that you should kill it to camera too.

 

My thought is that on the day, the director doesn't want extra directors.  But after the fact, does it matter?  Or are the director's directions always private, through and through?  Is there any expectation of privacy when the camera is rolling?  If they want privacy, wouldn't they cut?

[old school]

I will feed sound to camera on MOS shots if there is any value to it like sound fx, but if the director or AD or Camera is saying stuff that makes it unusable then I kill it. I know it seems silly at times to kill the feed but it is the director who says who they want to work with and most of the ones I work for want it killed when we aren't rolling. I think the potential unintended consequences of a remark embedded in the picture heard weeks later by someone down the line can cause pain for the person whoever that might be who said it.  It all becomes a judgment call really.

CrewC

[afewmoreyears]

Do you kill feed between "takes" even if camera is still rolling?  And I didn't kill feed to camera, because I figured at least it's still recorded there if I forget to push it up for Comteks.  But I guess it makes sense if you do kill Comteks for the "still rolling" moments between takes, that you should kill it to camera too.

 

My thought is that on the day, the director doesn't want extra directors.  But after the fact, does it matter?  Or are the director's directions always private, through and through?  Is there any expectation of privacy when the camera is rolling?  If they want privacy, wouldn't they cut?

If the camera is rolling, the feeds stay up... normally... unless the director quickly walks up and gives some direction... I will fade down... to protect them...  When the camera IS rolling there is no REAL expectation of privacy... but I can help.... It's a team effort...

 Crew's comment on "unintended consequences" with something recorded, and then a week later heard by some at an edit, can be damaging to those who said something others were not meant to hear... Absolutely...  spot on..  We try not to let that happen... But .... people have to be a bit smart... they have to watch what they say, only so much we can do..

 

 I send the same feed to Camera and Comteks... so for me it's easy... Many times nothing to camera...

[RPSharman]

I guess it's better to have nothing to camera than a wrong thing to camera. That's the answer I was looking for.

Clients must be used to it. If it were me, I'd be thinking, "What is that director saying that they don't want us to hear."

I have no personal preference, and appreciate the protocol lesson from a couple of experts. That will be my new MO on commercials.

Another valuable JWSound lesson. Thanks!!

[studiomprd]

" So I was wondering if/what the Standard MO may be in other markets. "

it depends,  and it isn't necessarily by markets, though some specialties are generally different than other.

there is excellent discussion of the competing interests in leaving something (the feed, or something else) up, or killing the feed in the interests of diplomacy and job security.

[Philip Perkins]

It seems like on west coast commercials done movie style (ie not run and gun doco) it is expected that the feeds to the village will be muted when we aren't rolling.  It used to be that the villagers would get nervous that their headsets weren't working during the mutes, but that hasn't been happening so much lately.  I have been asked by agency to unmute between takes--that request goes to the AD immediately.  A lot of what I do nowadays is more doco-style, so the formal practices of a traditional commercial set get blurry--like since we seem to roll almost all the time the feeds stay open all the time too--everyone needs to be aware of this.  For my own peeps, I ask them to save any incriminating remarks for Miller-time--if you can't say it out loud then don't say it (PL or no).  Many of my current clients are VERY specific about MOS B roll having NO AUDIO recorded anywhere (audio, camera or video assist).

 

philp

[Marc Wielage]

Clients must be used to it. If it were me, I'd be thinking, "What is that director saying that they don't want us to hear."

 

I have worked with directors who have specifically told me, "make sure you have a mic up so our ad agency clients can hear my direction inbetween takes." I think that's so that when the agency says, "can you try another take and try this new line," they can hear the director repeat their instructions. In a way, it's the director making sure the agency knows he's busting his (or her) ass in getting the job done.

 

I absolutely do kill all mics except the boom inbetween takes and setups whenever possible. But in situations where I'm further from the set than I'd like to be, my cart monitor and the boom are my "eyes and ears on set," just so I know what's going on. I agree, if there's a private conversation, the boom op is hopefully savvy enough to stay away and just give us some ambience. 

 

I've heard editors go back and forth on whether they want ambience during "MOS" takes, and it's a judgement call. My inclination is to give them something, provided it isn't complete noise and garbage. If nothing else, it might give the effects editors a reference on where to cut in hard effects like door slams, footsteps, and explosions, even if we're not in ideal circumstances for sound. 

[old school]

Do you guys ever watch video village? I know you hear them because they are laughing/talking/whatever but they mostly aren't paying attention. Every time an AD asks if we can move on they ask to replay the last few takes because they weren't paying attention. Not that they say that but it is the truth. They'll always ask for one more and then it's back to not paying attention. It's a crazy but a well paying game being played by all of us.

CrewC

[stevegrider]

I have been given instructions of all kinds when it comes to video village. I have been asked to have 22 Comteks for clients, and I have been asked to supply ONLY ONE for the script supervisor. I have been told to leave Comteks open at all times and only open them between the slate and "cut". Many times it is indeed a game between director, agency and client and "I am but a pawn in game of life". Make the check out to.....

[Christopher Mills]

"it depends"  I'm sticking with lavs muted when talent is not rehearshing or shooting, however.

[Philip Perkins]

Do you guys ever watch video village? I know you hear them because they are laughing/talking/whatever but they mostly aren't paying attention. Every time an AD asks if we can move on they ask to replay the last few takes because they weren't paying attention. Not that they say that but it is the truth. They'll always ask for one more and then it's back to not paying attention. It's a crazy but a well paying game being played by all of us.

CrewC

As the "audio concierge" for those folks we just figure out what they want and do it.  The whole circus is for their benefit and they know it.  In the very old days directors and ADs would be great about silencing the village during takes--this never happens anymore unless the director is him or herself a famous personage.   The agency creative thing is very interactive/collaborative: they are gonna talk.  If you think it's bad during production try being in a post-production mix room with them all talking and phoning at once behind you while you are trying to listen for a problem or audition a sound effect.

 

philp

[Jim Gilchrist]

If you think they're loud, wait until the hotspot fails.

Best regards,

Jim

[studiomprd]

" the director repeat their instructions. "

I often think how frustrating it might be for many directors,  and if they (director) can: keep smiling, think of the paycheck, and do what they (client crowd) ask... well so can I.

Edited September 17, 2013 by studiomprd

[traut]

I do what the director tells me to do.

Usually they want the comteks muted.

[ccsnd]

I have seen people get fired for not muting signals between takes.

 

I have also refused to work a show because of a conversation I overheard with an actor talking about his firearm safety briefing (we were firing blanks) that made me feel very uncomfortable while we were setting signals.  It was a huge safety issue and that actor ended up....not acting.